Egon [they/them]

:yea:

Thanks for addressing a lot of things I let slide for the sake of a good discussion, and thanks for doing it far more succinctly than I could’ve.

(This was the best emoji for pollen I could think of)

The Ukrainian state forces it’s people to fight and does not allow them to leave. It has a choice and that choice is to listen to it’s people and accept peace.
If you think they should fight despite the fact that they do not wish to, then go volunteer yourself. Otherwise let the people decide for themselves.
Also your suggestion that they should leave is funny. I mean yeah if we’re in Fantasyland sure, they should leave. I also think Putin should give everyone a pony. Sadly we live in a world where Putin hasn’t given me a pony, a world were parties doesn’t give up leverage before a negotiation.
You guys keep talking about Russians being untrustworthy, but it was Ukraine that broke treaties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

Ukraine is far from spotless on the treaty-upholding-front. The current government was installed by the US, which is in direct breach of the Budapest Memorandum. The government has broken Minsk I and II which was a large part of the russian justification for the SMO.

Lmao excellent rebuttal good sir, perfectly shows the two sides.
“Hey here’s a well thought out argument referring to general tendencies in online discussion and the current observable situation in Ukraine.”
“Nuh uh”

It must be wild to as heavily programmed as you are

Bro it’s not even 2 minutes of reading, get it together

Genuine question, not really educated in the pre-war history.

Yes. The Minsk I and Minsk II treaties were brokered between Russia and Ukraine. These treaties required Ukraine to stop shelling the LPR and DPR. Ukraine continued to shell these two regions despite these treaties. This was part of Russia’s justification for their “Special Military Operation” which evolved into the full-scale war we see today (I consider them separate due to the fact Russia did not target critical infrastructure during the SMO, this doctrine only changed after further escalation).

These regions have a majority of ethnic Russians which is why they were targeted for shelling after Euromaidan in 2014. Since then tensions have only escalated.
Azov battalion have been integrated into the Ukrainian army. Part of their ideology is to rid Ukraine of Russians (this includes Ukrainian Russians.)
Sources:

• Bombings of civilians
• a news report about the bombing of civilians
• war crimes fighting separatists in these regions

For “anti-ethnic-russian sentiment”:

• Ukraine attempted to ban Russian and Yiddish in 2019
• Ukraine has now banned Russian language books, music
• This democratic nation banned 11 parties for being “pro-russian”

Several of the sources linked in this comment touches on the subject as well as things that happened more than two years ago.

Currently the Ukrainian army shows a callous disregard for civilians using them as human shields. This does not foster a sense of people being safe under the Ukrainian government.

Putin is certainly one of these war-driving forces, as well as his minions.

Lmao Putin is a politician like so many others, not some moustache twirling villain. You’re not really providing any reason for war apart from “Putin bad”. Yes, Putin indeed bad, but Putin not entirety of Russian state apparatus. Despite the propaganda that would have you believe otherwise Putin can’t snap his fingers and have his will exerted. That’s not how states are run, especially not for years on end. If you do that then you lose the support of your base and no one can rule alone.
This war has support among the populace and the political elite, if it didn’t them Prigozhins coup would have had much more support. The political elite and population also don’t support the war because they’re evil, but for material reasons. Putin is actually on the less militant side in the Russian attitude, he has been widely critiqued for now immediately fully escalating to a war instead of an SMO and he has been critiqued for not doing it sooner. This video is a good surface level primer for why Russia has been motivated to do as it did.

Hey we’ve got a military genius over here! Yes you’re right, the way wars are negotiated is that the winning side completely gives up all terrain because we think they’re stupid meanies and then they can ask for a peace pretty please.

Okay I just talked to Putin and he said they weren’t going to leave and then negotiate, he called me stupid for suggesting it and asked me if I lived in fantasy land.
To be fair, that would have been the first time I’m history a peace deal was negotiated like that.

Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn’t create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I’ve used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I’ve asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I’ve gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I’d like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves. If I truly believed the war in Ukraine was an existential threat, and was somehow able to square that with the fact ukrainians weren’t willing to fight, and able to square that with the idea that was must go on, then I can’t see how I wouldn’t also be volunteering.

The question as I’ve posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I’ve presented a solid case for both, but it’s still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.

Literally doing the playground “no u”. Lemmy.ml isn’t sending their best :(
Sorry for using 5-dollar words, english isn’t my first language (it’s russian, Putin has paid me personally for this interaction) and so sometimes I phrase things weirdly. Personally I’m used to people not speaking a language perfectly, so I try not to shame them for weird language use, but that’s just one of the many ways I’ve been raised better than you. I’d like to thank my mother and yours

Czechoslovakia, that’s a bingo! Thank you so much for filling out my bingo board. Sadly this still isn’t an answer to my question, you have failed yet again.

So once again you fail to answer the question lmao. Now you’re trying to dance around the premise, pricking holes in it, but this too you cannot do. You’re talking about “supporting the cause”, vague nonsense. You also seem to think that I asked “if you want a country to win in an argument on the internet, why don’t you go kill yourself in the war?” Are you dyslexic? Did you learn to read in that weird way where you recognize the shape of words instead of phonics?
I didn’t ask “if you support Ukraine…” I asked “If you think the war should continue, despite the fact that the people no longer want to fight it, why don’t you go volunteer?”

You keep making up new things, try to read what I have written more slowly. Maybe ask an adult for help.
You say that I imply that “if we support a country, then every individual in that country should fight as well.” No, buddy, just no.
I’m happy you’ve put on your big boy pants and tried your hand at rhetorics 101, but you really need to engage with the words you’re presented with rather than the words you’d like for me to have written. If you think a war should continue, despite the fact that the people of the nation you claim to support no longer want the war to continue, then I think it makes logical sense that you go volunteer. I know that if I supported a war to such an extent that I argued against peace, despite the fact the people I allegedly “support” (agree with online) do not want the war to continue, then it would be because I saw this war as something more important than simple territorial warfare, since I think it’s cool and good to throw unwilling people into a meat grinder for it. Since I am a “supporter” of this war to such an extent, then I would volunteer. I’m not, but you are, so why aren’t you volunteering?

Sure, I support the “ukrainina cause” Slava Ukraini! I also think they should accept the peace deal because the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. If you think they shouldn’t, despite the fact they no longer wish to fight, then you are, in fact, not supporting their cause. You are supporting more dead ukrainians. If you think this war must continue despite the fact ukrainians do not want it to, then you must think it is of such a moral importance, why then do you not also think it is your moral imperative to go fight for it?

Now answer my question

It strikes me as quite odd that you would be offended about me insisting on wanting an answer. This started out with me asking a question and you then… decided to jump in to not answer it? Of course you’re allowed to speak your mind, and I’m allowed to address your inane pathethic attempts at steering the conversation away from it’s starting point - To me that question is the whole point of this interaction. You are somehow offended at the fact that I would like to have my question answered, it’s really odd. Do you often get mad when people expect that dialogue proceeds in a rational fashion?
I will however do you a solid and address your questions. I recommend that you look at how I go about this concept of “answering a question” which seems to strike such furor within you, and use it as inspiration for the day you yourself find the ability to answer simple queries.

How about you start by acknowledging that Russia is the fascist aggressor in this war, could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory, and admitting that they’re simply the bad guys in this war?

Russia is a capitalist state run by oligarchs. Putin is a homophobe, I hope one day the russian people will be blessed with a government that governs for the people rather than over the people. The reasons for war are more complex than “mustache twirling bad man.” Your request here reveals your simplistic worldview of “good guys” and “bad guys”, these are not motivations for war.
I do not support Russia, however I am a realist and realise that no war has ever ended by the victorious party packing up and going home just because. Russia has offered a peace treaty and it is clear the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. I personally see no reason to continue a war that has already been lost especially not when that war has, as I’ve taken pains to illustrate, no popular support. I do not agree with the invasion of Ukraine, but I am able to observe and accept material reality, which is that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed. I think they should take it because I think the war should end.

You think (this I must assume since you cannot answer a simple question, nor engage with the basic arguments I have thus far presented) that despite the fact that that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed, they should not accept peace for some reason. Charitably I assume that people who hold this opinions of yours, hold it because they think the war is important in some way, and not because they lust for the blood of ukrainians. This is where my curiosity lies and where I would like to have it answered: Since people like you believe this war is so important that it must continue, why do you believe it is not important enough for you to go volunteer? You seem to believe Ukraine is a liberal democracy like the ones in the west and that Russia is a fascist dictatorship invading for no good reason except to murder or subjugate every single ukrainian. Therefore Ukraine must not accept a peace deal even though ukrainians do not want to fight. I don’t believe that, but if I did, I would go volunteer for Ukraine, since the war would then be so important for me. So how come? How come you can believe that Russia is so bad, so evil, so monstrous, so wrong, yet you do not believe you should go support the country that you think should reject the peace its people are clamoring for?

Answer my question

Initially I asked a question and you decided to engage by not answering the question, you’re now offended that I want you to answer the question. If you had no intention of ever answering the question, why engage at all? You call it bullshit, but of us two I am the only to have played with open cards, I have been honest and forthright with my intention from the get go. I have even answered your questions! Yet you somehow feel that I have deceived you. Are you really so simple as to be able to feel deceived by a person who outright tells you what it is they want?

Also not an answer, try again.

Once again not an answer, but I see the issue, you’re illiterate! It seems like you have found other words than the ones I’d written. The question was “Since you think the war in Ukraine is so important that it should continue despite the fact that ukrainians themselves do not want to continue fighting, why are you not volunteering for the war?”

Thrice you have been asked a simple question, thrice you have attempted to evade an answer. You’re pathetic.
Or is it that you cannot read what I have written? It would seem so, your question is a repetition, not acknowledging the answer it has received.
It is clear that you are psychotic, lusting for ukrainian blood. You wish for them to die in a meat grinder they do not wish to enter. A meat grinder of a war against an opponent who has offered a peace deal. You seem to think they should not accept this deal, so why don’t you go fight? The ukrainian people obviously do not wish to fight, they no longer see a reason to continue this war, since they must be forced to fight. Yet you think they should continue, so go support them the best way you can: with your body. But you won’t, and you won’t answer why, for the answer would require you to admit a deeper rot in your soul. Shame on you and shame on you for attempting to utilize these sad attempts at debatelord parlor tricks. I asked my question in good faith, I was genuinely qurious, yet from the moment you responded you have done naught but ignore this simple question.
Also you’re really bad at doing what you’re trying to do, it’s incredibly obvious how much a shitty little turd you’re being

The coughing will begin in three days.

Weasel, you’re evading the question. My answer: Russia has presented a peace deal. Now answer my question you coward.

I’m not arguing for anything. I’m asking a question and that question isn’t wether or not it is morally right for Russia to invade Ukraine. I am asking you: Since the ukrainian people do not wish to continue this war, but you think they should, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Ukraine should not accept this peace deal, if you think the war should continue, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Russia is so horrendous that Ukraine cannot accept peace, why are you not volunteering?