I don’t know what you mean by ‘fake.’ Do you mean people have a different public persona than a private persona? Because I think that’s been true for most of the history of civilization.

Hmmm I don’t really think so. Everyone has always tried to have a perfect public image since the days of yore (unless you have fuck you money). It might seem that way if you spend a lot of time on social media though, I don’t have anything other than lemmy and I’m pretty happy with it.

I think no. On social media, yes, sure. But otherwise no, the past was more tightly controlled societies. Fashion had less freedom, behavior was controlled from top down more, there was way more conformity to styles and in enforcement of all sorts of things. There was always makeup, foundation garments, heeled shoes, etc.

I do think the technology has improved though, people can get closer to their ideal look. But I don’t feel like I have to participate in that world, nor do my kids. One of my sisters, and her daughter and family do live that “highlights reel” life but not many people I know do live like that, and I guess the main difference to me is I don’t feel like I have to.

I’ve found everyone to always be fake (In public).

You might want to change your social media habits?

You are right, but it maybe due to how easy the access to these small amount of people has become

Influencers/charmers were always a thing, was it not?

My favorite psychology professor likes to discuss the relationship between the level of fakeness in a society and the rise of totalitarianism in that same society. He says that when everybody lies more on a regular basis, even about small things, it lets bad things start to happen. And as the bad things start to happen, these people who lie about little things all the time can easily dupe themselves about the fact the bad things are happening, because they’ve gotten used to investing their mental energy into fake narratives.

Basically each problem gives a person the opportunity to tell the truth about the problem, which usually results in them having to do something about it to assuage their own conscience, or to lie about the problem, which makes space for them to act as if the problem isn’t there. It’s less scary and takes less work to lie, so we do it when we don’t feel like taking on the responsibility of the problem.

Then it becomes a cultural habit — something we do because we see others doing it and we’d rather not be the weird outlier — to lie about small things instead of facing them.

If this cultura of lying expands, it starts to encompass bigger and bigger things.

For example, instead of lying about whether your stepmother’s garlic bread tastes good, now you’re lying about whether you think it’s a good idea for your coworker to be having a third beer at lunch. “Go for it!” you say in a slightly sarcastic tone, telling yourself the sarcastic tone is sufficient feedback to fulfill your duty in this scenario. After all, he’s only a coworker, you tell yourself, actively ignoring the other night when you told him you were his friend.

Now you’re lying to your coworker and lying to yourself about whether you’re lying to your coworker. The lying has expanded.

In any given society, a certain amount of lying is expected. As an autistic, I’ve had a hard time dealing with the fact that the optimal amount of lying might not be zero. But even if it’s not zero, it is very small. And if a society’s culture gets too unbalanced, away from facing things as they come up and toward lying to ignore them instead, then the society starts to degrade.

Then everyone’s perception of the society, as in the sum total of all their experiences interacting with others including those potential interactions they haven’t had yet, starts to skew in terms of the expectation that others will lie to them. Interactions become less valuable, because any given interaction could change out from under you. You can’t trust your neighbor when they say they’ll keep an eye on your yard. You can’t trust your boss when she says you can come to her with anything. You can’t trust your friends to give you honest feedback when you ask for it.

And that state of trust just makes it more tempting to lie. Why be vulnerable with the truth when the people around you are liars? Why trust your own sense that something is wrong if you, yourself, lie all the time?

And this particular psych prof says that the extreme end of that process, of the lies getting bigger and more frequent, in a network effect across a whole society, is genocide and other atrocity.

The lies cause people to check out and when people check out to a sufficient degree they can ignore a genocide, and when people can ignore a genocide, tell themselves there’s nothing they can do to stop it, is when genocide happens.

Sort of like how the human body is always being invaded by pathogens, all day every day. It’s only when the immune system fails to kill those pathogens immediately that an infection occurs.

In the same way, the genocidal impulse is always there, coming out of the darkest and nastiest parts of the human soul. But people’s ability to pay attention, convey and receive accurate information, and fix problems as they see them (which is a result of seeing them clearly enough to be moved to action by them), acts to weed out that impulse continually.

A culture of lying is like a breakdown of the signals used in the immune system. If the T-cells can’t recognize invaders they can’t eat them. A culture of truth-telling puts people into contact with what’s going on, in a way they can’t ignore. And that same culture of truth-telling makes people respect humanity and their own society, making it feel more worth defending from intentional evil, and from unconscious mistake-making and general breakdown.

Fake no. Facade for sure.

Capitalism. It’s not fake, it’s just a commodity, now.

From Graeber’s The Dawn of Everything:

For instance, if Pinker is correct, then any sane person who had to choose between (a) the violent chaos and abject poverty of the ‘tribal’ stage in human development and (b) the relative security and prosperity of Western civilization would not hesitate to leap for safety. But empirical data is available here, and it suggests something is very wrong with Pinker’s conclusions.

Over the last several centuries, there have been numerous occasions when individuals found themselves in a position to make precisely this choice – and they almost never go the way Pinker would have predicted. Some have left us clear, rational explanations for why they made the choices they did.

Graeber goes on to give a couple of these accounts. They tend to mention a loneliness associated with “western civilization,” as well as a feeling that I think lines up very well with what Marx described as alienation.

Some emphasized the virtues of freedom they found in Native American societies, including sexual freedom, but also freedom from the expectation of constant toil in pursuit of land and wealth.

Later in the book, and I apologize that I can’t find the reference right now, he comes back to this topic for a little bit, and talks about the depths of relationships that these people describe, and how their relationships in the “civilized” world are more shallow and less satisfying. Deep human relationships are the opposite of fake, so I think here we have a point in favor of “yes.”

Add to that that the concept of “privacy” as we know it is relatively new. It’s been 10+ years since I read a book about this, the title of which I can’t even remember, but it argued that the expectation of domestic privacy, even from one’s own family, is a phenomenon from the last few hundred years, especially outside the elite. People lived far, far more communally, with the expectation that they just were in each other’s business more. I’d argue that it’s a lot harder to be fake if you can’t hide who you really are.

Between those two things, I think it’s reasonable to argue that yes, society has gotten more fake.

I feel like everything has to be ironic now and I hate it. I feel like modern media has generally lost the ability to be genuine

There’s a reason “fake it until you make it” is so popular.

Society has always been fake. You’re just becoming more aware of it as you get older.

I think it’s becoming more see-thru. More fake … what’s an example of a non-fake society?

As in misinformation and decimation of fictitious information yes social media has given everyone a megaphone. It’s also easier to find people who have similar conspiratorial views and spiral down into believing and contributing to fake news etc. and the general feeling that you can trust something to be real and not something yelled at you from a big megaphone.

As with individuals, I’m not sure where I read it first and I don’t feel like googling it now but…

Everyone has three selves: a public persona, a private persona and a personal persona.

Public is strait forward it’s the face/mask/personality one has in public with strangers, acquaintances, and some work colleagues.

Private is your personality with very close friends and family. Things you would not do or say in public but would around your close circle.

Personal is the inner you that you share with no one. Your inner thoughts, your conscience, your inner voice and inner monologue.

This is generally by a spectrum that blend into one another and change over time rather than three separate buckets. As you get older and more aware of these different perspectives some people act more like they are buckets not a spectrum. These people seem much more fake especially if you ever see their public and private personas. You may have just seen this for the first time.

Idk if you consider this fake or not, but there’s considerably more plastic surgery, Botox, veneers, teeth bleaching, and appearance oriented behaviors these days. Especially in movies, but also in real life. There’s not a single actor with natural teeth now, except for Steve Buschimi. Even he probably bleaches his teeth. You used to see people everywhere as they were naturally. Now it’s very common to see people who have had cosmetic procedures done. There’s also a lot more bodybuilding and body sculpting now. That one is possibly a positive, since it contributes to a person’s overall health. Go watch a movie from the 70’s. The actors look like real people. Now every actor looks like digitally sculpted perfection.