His win is a direct result of the Supreme Court’s decision in a pivotal LGBTQ+ rights case.
As one of the LGBT, I’m fine with this. I want the ability to refuse work to the Religious and Republicans—and I have done so for decades. The difference is, I don’t tell them why. I just say I’m busy. Because even though I want them to burn in a fiery hell, I’m not an asshole.
While religion is a protected class, political orientation is not protected. It is perfectly legal (and moral) to ask someone if they are conservative before agreeing to do work for them.
You can even cite a policy to really drive it home: “I do not conduct business with racists, bigots, misogynists, homophobes, xenophobes, fascists or any other type of conservatives.”
Some asshole lawyer will eventually win the argument that religiosity and conservatism are commutative.
And tbh, they’ll be right.
Nope. Conservatism is a political affiliation. Will always be before the eyes of the U.S. law*
*Unless the fucking SCOTUS fucks things up again.
You should just assume the Supreme Court follows Clavinball and Whose Line is it Anyway rules at this point.
Sure, just look at Trump supporters they are a cult, so maybe they can get a religious protection.
Religion should arguably not be a protected class either.
“My religion forces me to vote republican.”
“My religion forces me to cut up baby dicks.”
I think you’re getting downvoted by fans of baby dick mutilation, unfortunately.
This is the way.
Cool but where do you draw the line? If a taxi driver refuses to drive you is it still fine? What if a teacher refuses to teach your children? Or if a doctor refuses to treat you?
I don’t know what the person you’re replying to does for work, but I feel like what their work is really makes a big difference. Teachers don’t (or shouldn’t) teach kids any differently based on orientation, political ideology, etc., other than perhaps excusing them from work that goes against their beliefs (for example celebrating a holiday they take objection to). The teacher isn’t required to “go against their beliefs” and do something they disagree with, only to keep their mouth shut about any disagreements they may have with a student’s lifestyle. A teacher should not be able to refuse to teach anyone because they are not being asked to do a special job catering to any particular student. If they disagree with the curriculum, I would guess they just shouldn’t be a teacher then (as in, if you’re a high school science teacher you may be required to teach evolution).
Similarly with a doctor, they should not be able to say “I refuse to treat you because you’re gay/religious/political.” Everyone gets the same medical care. The only exception I can think of is transgender medical care, but if they don’t want to do that they can just not go into that field.
Anything that involves creating is a little different. A wedding photographer would be more actively participating in a gay wedding. Or a Christian wedding, etc. If they feel really uncomfortable with that, they shouldn’t have to. That doesn’t change my opinion that they’re closed-minded and bigoted, and it doesn’t mean people can’t leave them bad reviews stating as much. Plus, these services are not basic rights, whereas healthcare and education are basic rights.
There’s been lots of recent stories of teachers refusing the call kids by their preferred pronouns, for one. But also, I think you’re trying to be more rational than these conservatives are. They don’t need there to be a difference in how they work with someone to refuse to do it. Some will literally claim it’s against their religion to be involved with an LGBT person at all.
Stuff like education is an obvious basic right, yeah, but there’s so much fuzziness. Should the only store in walking distance be able to refuse to serve you? Especially in small towns where there might only be a single business providing a service, they can easily make the area effectively an unlivable area for whichever group is the current focus of conservatives.
Plus there’s the good ol’ paradox of intolerance. By just allowing people to discriminate, it spreads. When it’s acceptable for one business to discriminate, it’s more likely others are going to adopt the same stance. More people will be taught their intolerance. It’s basically a social illness. Much like a real illness, that needs to be isolated and prevented from spreading.
Taxi? I mean, I guess? If I was a taxi driver and a bunch of people from the Westboro Baptist Church tried to get into my cab, I’d speed off for sure.
Teacher? Hmm. Well, they can try. But, humorously, it’s just like a “conservative” to deny a child an education. It’s all about the kids right? Trash.
Doctor? No. They are governed by rules that prevent that.
Ok, so let’s hope that the supreme court agrees with you and draws the line at taxi drivers. Because today they let photographers discriminate you and tomorrow they can decide that the rules for doctors are unconstitutional.
I understand your fear. But my opinion isn’t going to impact that crooked group. It’s not like I voted for them. Whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen regardless of what you or I do. We’re all fucked. I may as well be allowed to legally discriminate against the people who can legally discriminate against me. 🤷♂️
Do you really want a doctor treat you who despises you? Can you still trust them to do their best?
The real problem lies deeper than this.
So where you live doctors just let people suffer/die if they don’t like them and it’s ok? You don’t have any oversight, expert panels, ethics boards, investigations? That’s wild.
You don’t think there’s a range between doing the bare minimum and giving your best? I don’t say they let you die, or send you away. I said I wouldn’t be sure they treat me with the same effort they treat someone they like (or at least don’t dislike).
I think you watch to much TV. That’s not how medicine works. How do you imagine it? I go to a doctor with migraine and he starts thinking real hard what could be the cause? And if he ‘despises’ me he just doesn’t think as hard?
There are procedures doctors have to follow. If they fail to follow the procedures it’s malpractice. The procedures are the same for all doctors. There’s no ‘look, I did the bare minimum, you can’t punish me’. Either you did what was required or you didn’t. Each time a doctor would mistreat someone on purpose because he ‘despises’ them they would open themselves for investigation and a court case. That doesn’t mean there are no shitty doctor making mistakes, they would just have to be really dumb to do it in purpose.
I think it depends if you are a contractor or an employee. A contractor like a cab driver or photographer sure they can refuse clients, but a teacher and Dr are both employees of a school district and insurance company who have a public image to uphold.
A contractor like a cab driver or photographer sure they can refuse clients
In certain cities cabbies are actually not allowed to refuse clients, particularly to avoid discrimination issues
I can tell you one thing: wedding photography is not where to draw the line.
Edit: come to think of it, you’re right, though. Businesses should serve all people, especially protected classes. Don’t want to deal with it? Don’t start a business.
Probably the teacher. I’d support law brought in that public service jobs i.e. medicine, education, government etc must serve all but surely that’s already law in the sense of discrimination?
But people offering a taxi ride, photography etc? They can tell you to fuck off for the simple reason of not liking your voice on the phone or the look of your face. Why does the world insist on this delusion of forced love and happiness? And it’s ironic as they are upset they can’t have access to X so want to upset the person providing X and force them to provide it to people they don’t want to?
Insanity.
The world is a mean place, always has been, always will be.
Do you think it’s a good world if someone, say, can’t use the nearest small grocery store or has a 50/50 chance that any given taxi will refuse to serve them, leaving them stranded for longer and regularly late as a result? All because maybe they look gay or trans or Muslim or whatever the right wing media is currently drumming up fear towards?
Your comment is about the perspective of the person providing the service, but what about the people being affected by the discrimination (who are often more vulnerable in the first place)? Do you not care about their experience? Their ability to experience the same quality of life as everyone else?
And sure, the world is a mean place, but why defend that? Why not try to make it at least a little bit better?
Yes
I guess if it’s contract work. In a teacher’s case all the kids pay for his service combined and he workdls for the school not the kids directly, I guess. And a taxi driver can refuse to drive you, and some of them have to people who act racists towards them or act like karens in a few videos I’ve seen.
It’s probably easier to say what professions are clearly behind the line. Nobody’s going to be harmed if a photographer denies someone a service. And would they have wanted a forced service from a photographer who’s so clearly against their core values anyway? That seems like a recipe for lousy pictures.
wanted to prove the law was unjust before it even affected him
Who was denied or sought a service here?
It’s a bit stunning how many people just don’t get this. The laws say you can’t discriminate people based on their race, religion or sexuality for a reason. If you accept this behaviour you basically saying that discrimination is fine and legal. This means corporation can stop hiring LGBT people, businesses can stop serving them, private school can reject their kids. Legally it’s the same. This is not about one guy rejecting a customer. He could just say that he’s busy, no one will force him to work. This is about him saying that this is specifically because of their sexuality and and the courts trying to legalize discrimination. And some people claim that this entire case was made up on purpose: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/09/24/alliance-defending-freedom-wedding-lawsuit/
The fact that people don’t understand how this works is just stunning.
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I don’t see a point in making people angry. I just don’t want to be around them or talk to them or help them make money 🤷♂️ I’m sorry my take on hating people who hate me disturbs you. Maybe stop hating lol
I disagree with him, and I think he’s bigoted. But I don’t think anyone has the right to his labor and that he should be legally forced to photograph things that he doesn’t want to photograph. And it’s not like photography is a business that anyone can corner the market of in a small town or anything like that, all you need is a camera. It’s the most common side hustle I see people try.
And how do you differentiate between this and say, a shop, or a doctor? Do LGBT people not “have the right to the labour” of those services?
I disagree with that framing entirely. But I’m curious to know how you would differentiate.
I’d say it’s the business model.
Not defending the practices or arguing in defense of bigotry, just offering an explanation.
If it’s a business model like a store where you come in and buy things with prices on them, that’s open to everyone equally.
If it’s a business where you sit down individually with each client and work out custom goods and services and pricing, then it’s less “owner sells things” and more “clients contract owner for XYZ”, and at that point, I’d tend to agree that it’s a two way street, that both parties must agree to terms.
At that point, both sides have the option to simply not agree and not enter into a contract, for any reason. Just because one may disagree with one party’s decision to not enter that agreement doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have that option.
What if it was a photographer who didn’t want to be hired to photograph a Trump rally, a pro-life protest, or something else they felt strongly against like a (peaceful, lawful) far right event?
I don’t think in those cases that a photographer should have no choice because the organizers are paying the money, so likewise, in this case, I don’t feel like it’s fair to force the photographer to cover an event they have a strong moral objection to, simply because that’s their business.
Again, I’m not arguing that I agree with the photographer or that their position isn’t bigoted, just offering a distinction.
I think your comment can be summed up more succinctly with “independent contractors have more discretion to choose their clients or projects than businesses that serve the public.” And I agree with you
But why
For the same reason that I don’t believe gay couples should be legally forced to accept services from a MAGA photographer. A private contract in this situation is just that, a contract. Both parties have the power to set whatever terms and conditions that they want.
For example, imagine a black couple wanted a photographer for a family event and said something along the lines of “we’d like to support members of the black community by hiring an independent black photographer.” If a white photographer saw this and sued, everyone would (rightfully) react negatively to him trying to force a private party to break the conditions they set for their private contract.
But a MAGA supporter is not the same characteristic as being LGQTB. They are not equivalent. Some countries have protected classes which I think is best. Political affiliation is not protected. Sexual orientation is. A protected class is saying that infringing the freedoms of others based on these characteristics is a great threat to freedom. The country needs to explicitly state it won’t tolerate it, because it will erode the freedom far greater than not allowing it. You can discriminate against someone based on choices they make, but not on inherent characteristics they have.
Likewise saying you are hiring a black photographer isn’t the same as saying you’re not hiring a white photographer. The distinction is important. You’re not saying you exclude a person based on an inherent/protected characteristic. The exclusion can be inferred but it doesn’t actually mean the exclusion exists. You can say you will hire a black photographer does not mean you won’t consider or hire any other. But saying you will not hire a white photographer does concretely state your exclusion which shouldn’t be a factor in business in any free Democratic country.
I would think this is a choice that doesn’t have a right answer. All choices suck. You infringe on someone regardless of choice. But saying that I think the choice with least harm is choosing to have protected classes that can’t be infringed on vs allowing people to disallow people access to services based on these protected classes. I would prefer a person who feels they will infringe on those rights to not choose to be in the market offering services where they can discriminate based on sex, race, sexual orientation or other traits that should be protected. But if they feel they don’t want to serve plumbers or Democrats or movie producers all the power to them
Religion is a protected class.
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I’m not saying I disagree with your position, but being a Trump supporter or anti-choice is a choice, whereas being LGBTQ isn’t, so the comparison isn’t of equal demographic descriptors.
I disagree with your appraisal but as an example that splits your uprights: let’s say the photographer in question is a member of a demographic that is or was persecuted in some way and those trying to hire them are members of the persecuting demographic.
A Ukrainian photographer being asked to cover a family event for a family of Russians. Even if nobody involved has anything to do with the war, the situation could very likely make the photographer uncomfortable, and I don’t think that most people would fault the photographer for passing on the opportunity.
A black photographer being asked to cover a wedding being held on the grounds of a former Southern plantation is another case where I feel that the photographer would be understandably uncomfortable and the photographer would be completely justified in declining.
Even something like, say, an artist who is the daughter of Filipino parents who were subjected to horrific treatment during the japanese occupation during ww2, and now she’s being approached by a Japanese patron to commission her for a piece. While there’s a good chance that the artist may not be affected by her family’s history and be able to create the commission without any issue, I also feel that if that’s not the case, and the dynamic makes her uncomfortable, she would be completely within her rights to simply decline.
There’s even the possibility of the effects of real trauma being unjustly applied: the black photographer who was assaulted by a white person and now simply doesn’t want to work events for white people (or vice versa). The female SA victim who won’t work with men.
Simply flipping the party who has a condition they can’t change seems (to me at least) to change the dynamic. Having non-choice conditions on both sides changes the dynamic even more.
As such, I feel that the only fair situation is one in which the business contact is understood to be a two party contract, with both sides having full agency over their decision about whether to enter into the agreement for any reason. It’s different when it’s like a shop owner or something, where the entire transaction takes a minute and the goods and services they provide are open to the public in general.
But in the cases I’m talking about, I see the business models and getting comparable to valves or switches in a system. Some valves are “always open” except in specific circumstances: the main water valve, the valve from the pipes into your toilet tank, etc. and they’re just left open outside of specific special circumstances. Others are “always closed” outside of special circumstances: the bypass for a filter, or a drainage valve, or even the knobs on the sink which are only open when you’re actually using it. I see storefronts as “always open” valves, providing their services to the public in general unless they’re closed. In contrast, contract workers are “always closed” valves, not working by default, and their valve of work only opens when they agree to it. And in that business model, they should be free to keep that valve closed for any reason, regardless of whether it’s a good or shitty reason to anyone else.
While you or I may not particularly like or approve of one party or the other’s reasoning for opting out of a contract, I do believe it should be their decision.
Did you respond to the wrong comment? If not, you read a lot into what little I said and much I wouldn’t have said, had I said more.
This isn’t about defining a business model. It’s about defining discrimination and protected groups. By your logic above, the photographer could charge a black couple more than a white one. I know that’s not what you mean, but it would be the potential result of how that law would be interpreted.
At the end of the day, a Trump rally is not a protected group, so a business can say no. Just like a shop proprietor can refuse business to said rally goers, but not to a protected group.
By your logic above, the photographer could charge a black couple more than a white one. I know that’s not what you mean, but it would be the potential result of how that law would be interpreted.
No that is part of what I mean. And it is about defining a business model.
They absolutely could do that. You and I may not like that, but they should absolutely have the discretion to do that, when they’re negotiating individual terms with individual clients.
If the photographer was a black woman who’d been sexually assaulted by a white male police officer, should she be legally compelled to provide her services to a retirement party for a white male police chief, regardless of whether or causes her significant trauma?
What if instead it’s someone who was raised Catholic then eventually left the church with some hard feelings when they married an atheist…and now they’re being asked by the church to cover a fundraiser event the church is putting on? Or even just a Catholic family having a confirmation or something and they want the photographer to document the occasion?
I’m not saying that I personally wouldn’t do these events or that I feel the person’s objection may be legitimate or not, my point is that it doesn’t matter what I think, and that a freelancer should always have the right to not enter into a contract for any reason. Sure, that freedom could be used in ways that allow them to express their bigotry, but I feel that’s a possibility which is an acceptable cost/risk in return for the freedom of these freelancers to choose how to do business.
Just my opinion and you’re free to disagree!
They absolutely could do that. You and I may not like that, but they should absolutely have the discretion to do that, when they’re negotiating individual terms with individual clients.
No, they can’t. They cannot simply because they are a protected class. If there other reasons, they can.
If the photographer was a black woman who’d been sexually assaulted by a white male police officer, should she be legally compelled to provide her services to a retirement party for a white male police chief, regardless of whether or causes her significant trauma?
Not because he is white. But yes because he is a police chief, or just about any other reason.
What if instead it’s someone who was raised Catholic then eventually left the church with some hard feelings when they married an atheist…and now they’re being asked by the church to cover a fundraiser event the church is putting on? Or even just a Catholic family having a confirmation or something and they want the photographer to document the occasion?
She could decline because its a church, a business, but not because a client has a religion.
… my point is that it doesn’t matter what I think, and that a freelancer should always have the right to not enter into a contract for any reason. Sure, that freedom could be used in ways that allow them to express their bigotry, but I feel that’s a possibility which is an acceptable cost/risk in return for the freedom of these freelancers to choose how to do business.
The rest of the paragraph is what you think. It is not what the majority think, and that is why laws exist as they do, because the majority voted for them.
Just my opinion and you’re free to disagree!
I do disagree, and so does the law, excluding OPs post and thus why this is relevant and important to understand. You’re still trying to frame this as a business model, but it’s about protected classes.
If it’s a business where you sit down individually with each client and work out custom goods and services and pricing, then it’s less “owner sells things” and more “clients contract owner for XYZ”, and at that point, I’d tend to agree that it’s a two way street, that both parties must agree to terms.
Healthcare falls into this quite easily.
So I agree with you, but food for thought as I was mulling this over: what about someone building a deck? I shouldn’t discriminate who I build a deck for based on color or orientationn because building that deck doesn’t expose me to anything I object to (I’m using “I” universally here - I’m queer positive and don’t build decks). But like if I’m a boudoir photographer who is squicked by queer sexuality I ought to be able to decline a shoot.
So I don’t know that the line is just a one on one service. That’s not quite there, but it’s close. I recognize the need to protect folks from being forced to witness or participate in things they object to, but I also recognize the need to protect minority groups from being excluded from the benefits of society.
I also think it would do people good to get over themselves and be exposed to things they find uncomfortable and grow as a person, but I recognize that isn’t anything that can be forced on someone.
Yeah I agree that it doesn’t seem to be a firm hard line, but maybe that’s a good thing. And honestly, to me it’s one of those things that, from a purely economic standpoint, it’s just opening up that opportunity to competitors.
So you don’t wanna photo gay weddings? That’s cool, someone else will.
Gig worker versus someone providing a service to the general public. A wedding photographer is not on the job until you both accept the terms and sign a contract.
Besides, do you really want a wedding photographer that doesn’t want to be there and has to be legally forced?
I’d say anything that could be considered as creative, and isn’t necessary for life.
That said, I’d rather non-essential creatives be allowed to discriminate. Who wants a closeted homophobe photographing their wedding? I’d rather a non-professional friend do it with their cell phone.
Should they also be allowed to have a whites only business? Because I’m pretty sure they legally can’t discriminate that way. It’s only okay if someone is LGBT+.
No. But he should be able to reject creating something that says “whites only” or “straights only”.
Example:
Denying a “white power” photo session - should be legal
Denying taking senior photos because the client is white - should not be legal
Denying professional headshots because the client is gay - should not be legal
Denying a “gay pride” photo session - should be legal (though you’re an asshole if you do it IMO)
But the thing is, don’t even give a reason. You don’t have to take every job, and you don’t have to say why. If you make the stand to not take a certain job because of political reasons, you are bringing negative attention on yourself
I don’t think you understood what I said.
The difference is in the business model.
If they’re working individual jobs on a freelance, case by case, contract-based model, then they can do whatever they want as far as signing a contract to do work or not signing a contract to do work with whomever they wish.
The reasons might be shitty sometimes, but that’s not enough of a reason to compel all freelancers to do work they don’t want to.
Are you actually claiming that as long as you’re freelance, you can discriminate against people by race?
I’m saying you don’t have to sign any contract you don’t want to sign with anyone for any reason.
Any reason including “I don’t work with black people?” Are you sure about that?
So you’re saying minorities don’t have a right to anything but the bare essentials?
Or are you saying the right of bigoted business owners to discriminate trumps the right of individuals to be treated equally?
I don’t think you understood what I said.
Is mixing a drink creative?
Is hairstyling creative?
Is designing landscapes creative?
Is putting shingles on a house creative?
Is doing electrical work creative?
What type of work that requires some level of skill and design specific to the project not creative?
Why don’t minorities deserve the right to hire the same businesses as everyone else?
I don’t think you understood what I said.
I’d say anything that could be considered as creative
This is basically how it’s handled. In the Masterpiece Cake case it wasn’t about selling the couple “just” a cake. If they’d wanted one out of the case the Shop was legally required to sell them one. They wanted a custom cake and that falls under “creative” which changes the rules.
The United States has long held that artistic expression, basically creative work, is protected under the 1st Amendment as a type of speech and the Government cannot compel speech without extreme need and even then it can only do it narrowly and temporarily.
What we really have with these is a collision between individual rights. Is it fair for the Government to abrogate the 1st Amendment Right of one person by compelling them to speak (create art) in order to satisfy the 14th Amendment Right of another person?
It may seem obvious but consider the controversy around Piss Christ. It was art and was thus subject to 1st Amendment protections and without those protections it would have been removed.
So not allowing art, creative work, 1st Amendment Protections would cause a pile of other problems. There is no perfect solutions when rights collide, there are only trade-offs.
Yes. I mean… if someone thinks it’s okay to force a minority to create racist content, their opinion isn’t worth a reply. And logically, that’s essentially what is being said when someone wants to force someone to create to spec something they don’t agree with.
Thank you for that great explanation!
Not saying this is a perfect analogy, but consider housing. If you are renting or selling real estate, you can not discriminate based on protected classes. However, if you are renting a room with shared spaces, you can deny applicants for any reason.
I think the difference comes down to creative outlets. Just like with the “create a website for same-sex weddings”. I also feel a photographer should be able to deny a Trump themed wedding or cake. But if it’s a general service or product offered to everyone, you shouldn’t be able to deny a person just for being gay or black or anything protected. I don’t know if I’m elaborating my thoughts about it well but do you get where I’m coming from?
A wedding photographer offers their services to everyone having weddings. If that photographer refuses to photograph same-sex weddings, is that not the same as denying service to someone over their sexuality?
The United States has long held that creative work, art basically, is a form of Speech and protected under the 1st Amendment. This means that compelling art is the same compelling speech and boy howdy are there a bunch of laws around that, laws that society really needs to have.
So it’s a collision between rights:
On the one side we have the Photographer and their Constitutional Claims to not be compelled to create art (speak) and their right to not do something that is against their religion.
On the other side we have a LGBTQ person and their Constitutional Claim to not be denied services as a member of a protected class.
We currently draw the line by protecting the right to not be compelled to speak. In practical terms this means that buying a standard per-packaged Good or Service cannot be denied to people in a protected class. If a member of that protected class wants to purchase a Good or Service that would require creative input then the seller can refuse.
It becomes more clear if you create a scenario where someone in a protected class wants something distasteful. Let say that this Nazi here is gay and getting married to this Nazi here. They roll into one of these fine bakeries in New York and demand a custom cake in the shape of Hitler standing on a base that says “Blood and Soil” with little red fondant swastikas between each letter.
They also need a wedding photographer but their Hitler Themed wedding has a 7’ tall statute of the guy standing underneath a banner that says “Arbeit Macht Frei” and they really want a shot of the two of them standing next to that statue in their finest Hugo Boss tuxedo’s while they both kiss Hitler’s cheeks.
So how does Society decide this mess? Do we force the Jewish bakery to make that cake because the buyers are minorities and gay? Do we force the photographer to take those pictures? Would YOU want to be forced to do either of those?
I sure as hell wouldn’t because what they want is deeply and personally offensive. This is why we protect against compelled speech.
I just hope those two guys are happy together regardless.
I wouldn’t do that either.
You make a good point and I thought the same thing after I made my initial comments. Another one I thought about was what if a person truly strongly believed in segregation, even maybe it being a part of their religion. Does that mean it’s ok for them to deny black people? That makes me deeply uncomfortable to put it lightly; I don’t think that is justifiable.
At the same time, there is something very personal about creative pursuits. Graphic artists can reject any idea and they don’t have to justify it. And this is something that is custom made for each customer. If the artist isn’t interested, and even is morally opposed to performing the work, even if they were legally required to do it, is it going to be their best work? Can they be penalized for deliberately doing a terrible job? I don’t know
I think this issue is why we have protected classes and why sexual orientation/preference/gender should be one.
When you say “graphic artists can reject any idea and they don’t have to justify it” the implication is that they can reject it for any reason which is not strictly true.
“I don’t feel like it” is a perfectly valid reason.
“I don’t like Black people” is not.
A photographer can choose not to do a job because they don’t feel like it, but not because it’s for a Black person or a Jewish person.
The issue here that is being overlooked in a lot of the discussion (but definitely is not being overlooked by the Supreme Court) is that LGBTQ people are not a protected class. Every time one of these cases pans out it sets another precedent that will be used to keep it that way.
It’s not the same as being forced to photograph a Trump rally or campaign photos. A far more apt comparison imo is race. Most people would agree that a business (any business) should not be able to exclude someone based on their race.
One is and artistic and expressive occupation. Stitching up a gay person wouldn’t be perceived as a form of statement. But being required to produce work in the traditional style of a wedding photographer could be perceived as issuing a statement in support of the event.
If you sold signs, you shouldn’t be able to decline someone a blank sign just because they are LGBT. But you shouldn’t be required to design one that carried a pro LGBT (or any other kind) of message.
I see where you are going with that, and I follow. But what about when we get into healthcare that can be perceived as queer-specific?
Say, when a doctor refuses to do proper STD screenings for a gay man, refuses to prescribe PrEP or PEP, or refuses to authorize checks on hormone levels?
All taken from experiences me and my friends have had, by the way.
I wouldn’t consider screenings or prescribing countermeasures to people who suspect exposure to medical threats particularly artistic or expressive. All those seem like pretty normal things for any sexually active adult to ask for regardless of sexuality.
Additionally those should be confidential so I don’t see them as a form of compelled speech.
Take something you strongly disagree with. Let’s say a certain political party and their agenda. Republicans, Democrats, Nazis, a radical independent, doesn’t matter what, just one you disagree with.
You’ve decided to provide a private service as an individual. Let’s say, event planning.
A political party approaches you to host their biggest rally yet. On enquiring, what it’s about, you find out it’s the one you disagree with.
Should you be made to? Are you denying rights by declining your services to them, or are you exercising your own by choosing to stand by your beliefs?
Your beliefs will of course outrage some people that have opposing ones, but they are yours and they should be protected no matter what they are or how wild or somber they are. It is only when you actively start harming people or directly denying human rights is when it becomes an issue… But you host events, you don’t control water, shelter, justice, health, or food to societies. So unless that’s somehow happening—and boy would that have been a regulatory fuck up—you have the freedom to not host events for things that go against what you believe, and we protect that even if people disagree with them.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own. That’s called hypocrisy and double standards. We respect this by disagreeing with someone’s beliefs, but we don’t strip them from people and force our own on them, just because we disagree.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own.
In the US, the civil rights legislation forces racists to serve black people and that is great.
There is a fundamental difference between immutable traits, such as race, gender, sexuality, and physical ability, and political beliefs. So your comparison to “something you strongly disagree with” is not fitting analogy.
Your beliefs will of course outrage some people that have opposing ones, but they are yours and they should be protected no matter what they are or how wild or somber they are.
We aren’t talking about “beliefs”. We’re talking about actions. Discrimination is an action.
It is only when you actively start harming people or directly denying human rights is when it becomes an issue…
And denying people goods and services based on who they are is harming them. So it is an issue.
You can’t make someone do things against their beliefs, just as you wouldn’t want to be made to do things against your own.
We can and we do, all the time. That’s part of living in society.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Let’s say that this Nazi here is gay and getting married to this Nazi here. They roll into one of these fine bakeries in New York and demand a custom cake in the shape of Hitler standing on a base that says “Blood and Soil” with little red fondant swastikas between each letter.
For a wedding venue they’d like to have this excellent location and catering company.
They also need a wedding photographer and their Hitler Themed wedding has a 7’ tall statute of the guy standing underneath a banner that says “Arbeit Macht Frei” and they really want a shot of the two of them standing next to that statue in their finest Hugo Boss tuxedo’s while they both kiss Hitler’s cheeks. They plan to stop by Stak Studios tomorrow and talk to them about it.
And denying people goods and services based on who they are is harming them.
How are you feeling about your statement right now?
You’re confusing ideology with identity.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Which is equivalent to saying you want to bring back “whites only” or “no gays” signs and whatever else. No thanks.
And let’s be clear. We aren’t actually talking about getting “whatever” from “whomever.” We are talking about people who are members of a group (not by choice) having the right to expect the same treatment as others from a business open to the public.
On the other hand, you have stated, essentially, bigoted owners of businesses open to the public can deny business to anyone who holds this proverbial membership card you mention.
Being a member of a protected class is not some kind of trump card you can play to get whatever you want from whomever you want it.
Never said it was.
The rest of your comment is similarly meaningless. You must have misunderstood me. The service would, and could, be denied because they are asking for a Nazi-themed service. Being a Nazi is a choice, not an immutable trait, nor a protected class.
Nowhere have I said that gay people shouldn’t be denied service for any reason, only that they shouldn’t be denied service because they’re gay.
How are you feeling about your statement right now?
Exactly the same as before you made your utterly irrelevant comment.
The thing’s you say are very authoritarian. The disregard for individual thoughts and freedoms is honestly scary. You can’t even differentiate private venture with public service. I suspect you discriminate against others all of the time, but it’s fine since it’s coming from you and your side of things, never questioning if you’re the bad person or not.
It slowly gets worse and worse each time you type. That last part is just flat out disgusting to say.
The Handmaiden’s Tale didn’t get 8.4 on iMDB because people can’t wait for that future enough.
Nothing but baseless assumptions and accusations. Waste of time.
Heh. Thank you. My point and case for anti-libertarian rests on that response perfectly.
And I appreciate you taking your time to state you’re wasting your time. Best your words and outlook rest here than elsewhere. We’re trying to progress as a species so, in a way, this is unintentionally helping.
More baseless accusations, without addressing anything I said.
You’re right, but that’s an unpopular take in this hive mind.
Lemmy folk can’t handle reality that contradicts their ideals.
a hive mind isnt when people disagree with you honey
This feels like it should be Libertarian 101. Thought the communities were left here, but apparently they just say that to feel good.
Whether you see it or not, your opinion is carving out a way for legal bigotry when done by a christian. Of course an atheist refusing to serve this asshole bigot would open up the door for a religious discrimination case against the atheist because bigots want nothing more than to divide society. We have no obligation to defend a bigot’s rights they are actively taking those same rights away from others.
To say that anyone can be a photographer belittles the skill associated with a professional photographer. That’s akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there’s a qualitative difference.
That aside, would there be any sign that the photographer could put on their door that would be illegal? No Blacks, No Jews, No Women, etc… If not, play that to the logical extreme; What if all photographers in town had the same sign? What services are appropriate to deny in entirety to a specific class of people.
That’s akin to saying that you can hire anyone with a voice to be a singer. Sure, you can, but there’s a qualitative difference.
Yes anyone with a camera can be a photographer just like anyone with a paintbrush can be a painter. Just because it takes skill to be good at them doesn’t mean the unskilled are just babies with fisherprice cameras pretending.
Oh boy, someone feels called out.
No. He gets to choose who to work for. He doesn’t get to choose not to work for entire classes of people when those classes are protected.
It’s the same as if he said he didn’t want black clients.
I mean…now you’re getting into the realm of words vs actions.
In the case of a freelance contract worker, there’s a difference between saying “I don’t do work for gays and blacks” and keeping your mouth shut (or providing some excuse like that you’re already too booked) and no-quoting that work, in effect not working for these groups.
However in both cases, I believe it is (and should be) legal.
Rude and offensive, sure, but I feel it’s a situation where you have to allow assholes to be assholes because the alternative is compulsory work which opens a whole new can of worms and is an even bigger restriction on freedoms.
So many people in these comments are trying to legislate morality, and it’s just a non-starter in these circumstances.
Protected classes deserve protection. Trying to get around that gets you sued.
This potentially opened the floodgates for discrimination. Unless this is specifically only for for “hired” or “contract” If not…. Coming soon to stores in the south near you
“NO F****TS ALLOWED”
“TRA***ES NOT WELCOME”
I don’t think he has the right to make his business known publicly if it isn’t available to the public-- all of it.
What a dumb take. There are plenty of businesses that advertise to the public but are not open to serving the public.
What if it’s purely a subject matter question? Surely you wouldn’t be OK with a wedding photographer being forced to stay around for some spicier honeymoon pictures if they didn’t want to photograph adult activity…
They shouldn’t be blocked from being a photographer just because they’re unwilling to photograph ALL subjects. That’s fucking stupid.
Unfortunately this is a strawman argument. The subject in question is a wedding. It shouldn’t matter what sexuality or race the people are.
There’s a difference between filming/photography of pornography vs a wedding. Don’t be disingenuous suggesting that the mere act of being gay equates the same to pornography.
photographer being forced to stay around for some spicier honeymoon pictures
probably shouldn’t compare a gay wedding to being forced to take sexual photos
While I agree about a photographer not having to photograph things they don’t want to, as someone else said, where do you put that line in the sand?
If the private business of a photographer can deny their services, can the private business of a hospital deny their services for those same reasons?
The problem is it’s a hard discussion to have as on the one hand you want private businesses to be able to give bigoted folks the boot, but then private businesses of bigots can then throw you out all the same. Advocating for the first does mean unintentionally advocating for the latter.
The bigger problem is why are there private hospitals.
That’s a much easier answer. Money and
briberylobbying.
Eh, if he want to leave money on the table, that is his business, I am sure there are plenty of people in a small town seeing the niche the guy just opened, the “Don’t be an asshole” niche.
The discriminating photographer will find that more than just LGBT people don’t want to support him. How many more is absolutely up for debate, but probably enough to support a new photographer
Why shouldn’t he be forced to photograph things he doesn’t want to photograph? If he just photographed things he wanted to, it would be a hobby. He’s not hanging around weddings taking photos for fun. He’s being paid to do a job, and the job is the same whether it is two men, two women, or one of each.
Apply the same logic to someone who didn’t want to photograph Asian people. “Hey, I know you’re in love, but I don’t condone your marriage because my God says Asian people shouldn’t get married. Sorry.”
It’s not that he should be forced to work for people he hates. It’s that he should not be allowed to be in the business at all if he wants to discriminate against his clients.
This is about my position. If somebody wants to discriminate, then a business is not the right structure for them. Same with public service, if you choose to be mayor, your responsibility is to everyone, not just a preferred subset.
Edit: To go further, talking about where to draw the line. I think for a business that’s an easy answer, the law. As a photo business for example they’d have have the duty to be available for hire to photograph any legal activity. But someone asking to photograph abuse or something is crossing the line.
I agree with that last point. You can’t be required to photograph crimes, and I’ll take it a step further and say you don’t have to offer your services to everyone. A wedding photographer doesn’t have to do proms, and a baker doesn’t have to make cookies. But if you photograph weddings and you bake wedding cakes, you can and should be prohibited from discriminating against clients based on your religion.
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Why are headlines about American Christians always the exact opposite of what the Bible wants them to be?
What happened to love thy neighbour and shit
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That’s not a protected class. 100% ok.
They have no class
nice
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Tolerance is a social contract. If one party does not practice tolerance, they have voided their right to be a part of that contract. People that support someone like Trump have revoked their place the contract of tolerance.
Was it you.
Nobody seems to be asking the main question: why would LGBT+ couples want to hire an open homophobe to take their wedding pictures to begin with?
I feel like framing the issue like this kinda dangerous. If a single entity (in this case, a business) is allowed to discriminate against a protected class, then are all businesses that provide that service allowed to discriminate against said class?
It seems as though they would be. That gets us back to a version of the Jim Crow South pretty quickly. How are LGBTQ+ folks supposed to exist as equal members in a society if entire segments of that society are legally allowed to close themselves off? What happens when a business that controls major segments of more important service sectors makes a similar decision (for example, say the only Level 1 trauma center in a city is in a privately-owned, religiously-affiliated medical center that now has a legal precedent to say they won’t serve LGBTQ+ patients for religious reasons)?
I feel like framing the issue like this kinda dangerous. If a single entity (in this case, a business) is allowed to discriminate against a protected class, then are all businesses that provide that service allowed to discriminate against said class?
I think the issue lies in the different measures of protected class, and the layers of law between State and Federal. US law is needlessly complicated and full of holes.
The Civil Rights Act provides protections for employees against discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin under Title VII. Title II covers inter-state commerce and protects against discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin - but not sex.
Beyond this, states are supposed to make their own laws. However, the Supreme Court decision in 303 Creative v. Elenis undermines this, as the court ruled that the 1st Amendment and free speech overrules any discrimination law the state makes. Thus, provided you avoid Title II by only doing business within the state, it would be possible to argue that you can discriminate against any protected classes, so long as that class isn’t protected by other Federal legislation (eg the Americans with Disabilities Act provides extensive coverage for those with disabilities).
You can take anything and make it horrifying if you want. It’s either a slippery slope or reductio ad absurdum.
This is a photographer that wanted to decline a customer, nothing more or less.
A business should be able to decide the kind of services it provides. If I don’t want to bake a gigantic 5’ swastika cake I shouldn’t have to.
At the end of the day capitalism protects everyone against excessive descrimination - business that reject people get less money, fewer reviews, will grow slower, etc. If that business rejects your business someone else will provide it. If nobody serves a community, there’s a business opportunity waiting. Etc.
I don’t know how delusional you need to be to assume it could EVER be possible that somehow every business would just refuse to serve a population because of X characteristic.
I don’t know how delusional you need to be to assume it could EVER be possible that somehow every business would just refuse to serve a population because of X characteristic
But they just said it: the Jim Crow south. This isn’t some crazy delusional scenario. It’s literally already happened, and it was not even a hundred years ago. When schools were integrated there were mobs of white housewives yelling racial slurs at little children because they were black. This is real shit that’s gone on for more of America’s history than not.
Don’t skip history class, everybody. But I guess if conservative judges get their way we’ll probably lose that too.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
Jim Crow laws didn’t mean that no business served black Americans. Don’t skip history class, everybody.
Good point, must not have been that bad, supreme court could really bring that one back with zero consequences, huh?
What? What are you even talking about?
Nobody wants racial segregation except the ignorant racists, who deserve the economic damage caused by being ignorant racists.
Forcing an ignorant racist to serve people they hate will accomplish nothing, and certainly won’t help their ignorance or racism.
Daryl Davis is pretty vocal about the way he deradicalized KKK members, I recommend looking into him. Spoiler: the secret is shared interests (music) and normal conversation, just getting to know each other.
/facepalm
I guess you’ve got a good point…its hard to imagine it could ever get that bad.
Same reason black people wanted to eat at the whites only lunch counters.
I don’t think that’s a 1:1 comparison.
Why not? Equality is equality.
In 303 Creative v. Elenis the answer is: the couple was manufactured. No LGBT+ couple tried to hire them. The man named in court docs who supposedly tried to hire 303 Creative first heard about the case when reporters contacted him shortly before the Supreme Court released their decision. He has been happily married (to a woman) for a long time, and had no need for a wedding website.
I doubt it starts that way, probably more like a Google search for “wedding photographers near me”, a few names pop up, you go there, start signing paperwork and getting signed up, and then when you put down your two names, they look at you with disgust and tell you to get out of their shop, interrupting your thoughts about normal stuff like marriage licenses.
So then you take your shaken fiancé from the store, and look for other wedding photographers, and probably learn that there are far more Christian photographers than you thought, and not many that would preside over a fairly mundane marriage, save for the fact its just two guys instead of a guy and a gal.
So many people here are missing the nuance between providing/selling TO SOMEONE and performing SOMETHING.
No, if you’re a snow removal company you shouldn’t be able to say “not shoveling your driveway because [insert reason]”. No, a cook shouldn’t be able to deny serving a regular club sandwich on the same basis.
Yes, a tattoo artist should be able to refuse to tattoo something (not someone) for the reason they want (and they do). Yes a cake maker should be able to deny making a specific cake because of the specifics of that specific cake, but not because of who the cake is for.
What about a pharmacist refusing to fill a legal, correct, and safe prescription that they disagree with?
Not covered, IMO. A pharmacist isn’t writing the scrip and isn’t administering the treatment. They’re merely completing a retail transaction, albeit one with a lot of paperwork. If they have a moral position against doing their job as prescribed by law, they should find a new job.
A care provider, like a doctor or nurse, has personal involvement with the patient. I’m ok with refusing to perform a procedure they disagree with, as long as there is no negative impact for the patient.
Pharmacists are a strictly regulated profession. The whole job is filling prescriptions ordered by doctors and informing customers (patients) about the safe use of the substances. It’s not a creative process and it’s not their choice to prescribe or deny medication.
Last I checked bakers and photographers are barely regulated by comparison, and you could easily consider their work creative in nature.
Humn… that’s a tough one tbh.
On one side I would say what the others are replying to you said, but on the other side I could see myself not wanting to dispense the drugs for an execution. (I know they’re not going through the pharmacy, but let’s pretend they did.)
I would be inclined to say it’s not “performative” and say they have to though.
Tough one.
I could see myself not wanting to dispense the drugs for an execution. (I know they’re not going through the pharmacy, but let’s pretend they did.)
Is your entire argument based on something that doesn’t happen and will never happen?
Hypotheticals are quite a useful thing when exploring ideas. And yes, I’m quite satisfied with how I approached it since I tried to contribute in a positive way rather than just go around and write shit comments that don’t benefit anyone.
Sure, but your example is too extreme to take seriously.
Death like that is so much worse than anything else, that it imo makes any other discussion meaningless. But when your scenario would never ever happen, it’s just a useless comment.
It doesn’t strengthen any point.
Using extreme is actually a common way to test scenarios…
Maybe, but the problem here is that it’s so extreme that it makes no sense.
Bringing up abortion pills would makeore sense, since someone could conceivably consider that to be murder and refuse to sell it. That would obviously be very stupid but it’s something that actually could happen.
So I agree with the content of your comment. I don’t agree with all the implications. A cake maker should be able to refuse to make a dick cake, but they shouldn’t be able to refuse to make a cake just because the couple is gay. If they would make an identical cake for a straight couple, they should make the same cake for a gay couple.
Similarly, a photographer should be allowed to refuse to take nudes photos, but they shouldn’t be allowed to take identical photos that they would for a straight couple just because the couple is gay.
I agree with what you’re saying at 95%. For the pictures for example, the photograph instructs their subjects “move a little closer”, “look this way”, "kiss lightly ", etc., etc.
If the photograph isn’t at ease with that, I’d argue they should be allowed to ensure not to be in a situation where they can’t render the proper service.
If the photograph isn’t at ease with that, I’d argue they should be allowed to ensure not to be in a situation where they can’t render the proper service
But where does that stop? At what point are racists who are uncomfortable with interracial marriage allowed to deny services to people because of their race
I pretty much already stated all that. When it’s about performing some act, and where “what you don’t agree with” impacts the work being performed.
Something I would say is that any industry that has regulations preventing entry in the domain should forbid denying service. For example, a telecom company since you are limited in the bands you can use, etc.
I still think the best way to deal with discrimination like that is educating people (and shaming by their friends!) but it’s not something easy with how the different “pockets of similar mentality” often don’t mix.
I pretty much already stated all that. When it’s about performing some act, and where “what you don’t agree with” impacts the work being performed.
…so if we go with the previous example, a photographer should be allowed to deny service to an interracial couple if they’re “not at ease” with seeing them -
“move a little closer”, “look this way”, "kiss lightly ", etc., etc.
Well the hypothetical protection you’re describing would in practice protect and embolden people who hold white supremacist beliefs. I say “embolden” because you know what a racist photographer would do without those protections? They’d either turn them down, or they would take the pictures, take the money, and keep their ugly mouths shut. Because those are better options than fighting a battle they believe they could lose.
However, if they are legally protected by the federal government in communicating to interracial couples they won’t provide service to them because they are an interracial couple, can you imagine the actions a now unrepressed fanatic would take? You think you wouldn’t see “whites only” on some of these people’s websites? And can you begin to imagine the fear and anxiety that would inspire in the people who now have to see those kinds of notices while looking for a wedding photographer? A wedding cake? Who now have to ask every photographer and cake maker if they serve “couples like them” if they don’t have a notice? Can you see the parallels?
Legal action that empowers bigots and disempowers those they hate at scale is all it takes to develop a foundation and vocal support for the return of socially acceptable and legally backed discrimination. And you better believe that a foundation is exactly what the far-right politicians that brought about these “protections” view it as, because plenty have signaled openly that they have no interest in stopping legalized queer discrimination here, and will absolutely use this decision to justify going further in the future, the same strategy they use for all their culture wars.
So bakers should be forced to make a cake that reads "I hate "?
Is there any legal basis in this?
Not really. As far as I’m aware there’s nothing in law that differentiates between selling a product and providing a service. However the whole problem here is that the law isn’t actually that well fleshed out.
The 14th Amendment gives equal protection under law. This basically says the state can’t treat any citizen different for any reason. Thus, a court can’t refuse to hear your case because you’re black, and a state can’t refuse your marriage because you’re gay. This only really applies to governments, however.
The Civil Rights Act has various Titles, most of them still relate to the state (eg voting). There are two exceptions where this goes beyond the public sector, though, Title VII on employment and Title II on inter-state commerce. Title II outlaws discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin - but not sex nor sexual orientation, and it only applies to inter-state commerce. Title VII prohibits private employers from discriminating against employees on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, but might not cover sexual orientation (I haven’t found a definition on what “sex” covers, orientation might fall under this but it might not).
There is other legislation covering specific aspects, such as the Americans with Disabilities Act which provides extensive protection to people with disabilities.
Beyond that, it is up to individual states to set their laws. However, they must do so within the bounds of the Constitution, which is what allows free speech challenges like the one in the Supreme Court ruling over 303 Creative v. Elenis, which set a clear precedent allowing private businesses to discriminate regardless of state law.
All in all, anti-discrimination laws in the US are actually very weak.
IANAL, feel free to correct me if you know better.
Dang. It’s so nice getting informative responses instead of memes and lame jokes.
Thank you.
It’s all about opinions, hence the should.
In US law specifically no, the US judicial system is purposefully built to give more power to courts to decide things like that on case by case basis and to get this kind of rules of thumb based on previous rulings, but not bounded by them. That’s why it’s so hard to codify anything into law, compared to other countries.
Does this in return mean that LGBTQ+ couples win the right to discriminate against christian photographers?
Even more than the outright bigotry, what concerns me most is this growing trend of conservative ideology that allows for lawsuits without cause. You shouldn’t be able to sue unless you are harmed. That’s the way its supposed to work. Yet these conservative courts have been turning that concept entirely on its head lately.
Um that’s not true at all. You are absolutely allowed to challenge the precedence of laws even if you have been yet to be directly affected.
That’s something completely different. You can tell by your use of the word “yet”.
How is that “completely different”
Why did you use the word “yet”?
because you are allowed to challenge laws even if they have yet to affect your life
Again, why are you using the word yet? Think about it. When you have you’ll understand the difference.
? All I’m saying is that immediate harm is not required for a lawsuit. I know you think you’re being smart but you’re overanalyzing what I said for no reason.
So no speeding tickets, no health inspection, no mandatory safety procedures, etc.?
All of that is enforced through laws that originate from lawsuits.
I think you might need to read my comment again as you wildly misinterpreted it.
“you shouldn’t be able to sue unless you are harmed” means there wouldn’t be ground for protective things. That’s what I mean.
You DUI? As long as this time you didn’t hit anyone, no fines / lawsuit?
Not even in the slightest. That’s just simply not how laws work.
I think you’re not appreciating the difference between a criminal violation and a civil tort. In civil law plaintiffs are required to claim damages. This is a means to ensure the system isn’t full of pointless petty lawsuits.
I gave just one example, but there are others like copyrights, patents, etc., in which you sue without having damage.
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i am kind of torn on this.
on the one hand I think it’s important that you can refuse to work with people you don’t like for whatever reason.
On the other hand, this is an absolutely childish and stupid reason to not work with someone.
You can refuse for any reason - except those involving discrimination against a protected class. Sexual orientation is supposed to be a protected class. You can still discriminate, you just have to give another/no reason and make sure it doesn’t look like you’re doing it for a prohibited reason.
If I wanted to say that no people with glasses were allowed to shop in my store, that would be allowed. If I wanted to say that no pregnant women could shop in my store, that wouldn’t be allowed. If it was a pregnant woman wearing glasses, I could claim the first reason, but then, if I was found to be allowing other people with glasses to shop, my reasoning would be challenged and I would have to demonstrate that I wasn’t discriminating because of pregnancy.
At least, this is how discrimination laws are supposed to work.
It turns out that anti-discrimination laws in the US are actually very weak and not fully defined, allowing bullshit like this to seep out of judge’s mouths and through the cracks. The Equal Protections Clause of the 14th Amendment only grants equality under law, so it only really affects governments. The Civil Rights Act extends this out to private employment under Title VII, but not much further.
What the 303 Creative v. Elenis ruling (the Supreme Court ruling that led to the settlement here) does, in theory, is allow any private person the right to discriminate against any protected class (eg pregnancy, disability, and all the others) so long as the person they’re discriminating against isn’t an employee. This is clearly bullshit, and I’m sure if people started discriminating against Christians they’d be up in arms.
Thankfully, this settlement does not in any way strengthen this ruling, it only gives one asshole permission by one state - there is no ruling here, just an out of court settlement, thus it does not extend to anyone else. In particular, the state probably thought that because there was no injured party actually being discriminated against there wasn’t much point wasting time and money litigating.
Obligatory IANAL.
Your comment should be an article. Excellent clarifications.
Thanks. I think my other comment made soon after gave a bit better detail on the laws:
I think the issue lies in the different measures of protected class, and the layers of law between State and Federal. US law is needlessly complicated and full of holes.
The Civil Rights Act provides protections for employees against discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin under Title VII. Title II covers inter-state commerce and protects against discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin - but not sex.
Beyond this, states are supposed to make their own laws. However, the Supreme Court decision in 303 Creative v. Elenis undermines this, as the court ruled that the 1st Amendment and free speech overrules any discrimination law the state makes. Thus, provided you avoid Title II by only doing business within the state, it would be possible to argue that you can discriminate against any protected classes, so long as that class isn’t protected by other Federal legislation (eg the Americans with Disabilities Act provides extensive coverage for those with disabilities).
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What’s there to be torn on?
You can’t honor people’s rights just when they suit your agenda. What would happen if you refused to work with someone and other people thought it was ‘absolutely childish and stupid’?
It feels…weird to me. Like refusing to work with someone at your job because they like coffee. Or dislike tigers.
Or more accurately, they were born with blue eyes and you just hate people with blue eyes. And you can’t stand them so much that you take your case against blue-eyed folk to the highest court of the land just to ensure you never have to work with them or take them as clients at your IT company. Sometimes it makes me wonder how we ever even got here, lol.
I’m pretty sure the photographer in question got all his court fees paid for by PACs or think tanks.
So you think I should be able to start job interviews by asking people if they’ve ever voted Republican? Because we absolutely employ LGBT people, so I have a legitimate interest in protecting them from bigots.
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Well, turned out it’s perfectly OK to start your interview by stating your allegiance to a christian god, so it’s only fair.
At this point? I think it’s not unreasonable. Given the state of the Republican party right now, you don’t vote for them for their economical policy or whatever they pretended to care about decades ago. They only concern about culture war bullshit, and by voting for them you agree with it, and that includes unwavering hate for LGBT people.
Not liking someone because they smoke isn’t the same as not liking someone for who they are.
wanted to prove the law was unjust before it even affected him
Who was hiring him?
More work for the intelligent ones that don’t discriminate.
I can´t believe I actually have to say this but here it comes: Everyone should be free to choose the things they do and don´t do. Nobody should be forced by law to do things they don´t want to do. This goes for LGBTQ+ people just as it goes for photographers and all other humans in this world. I support human rights 100%, which obviously especially includes discriminated minorities like LGBTQ+. However, I have to say that the framing in the article and it´s title, are edgy af and sound like based on an extremist, culture warrior ideology, instead of rational thinking and common sense.
“I don’t want to treat black people or LGBTQ like human beings.” – like that? Or how about signs on businesses “No Gays” or “No Hispanics”. Does this apply to government entities and their employees? How about it enough people don’t want to drink out of the same public fountain as black people, should we then bring back segregated fountains since everyone has a right to drink from fountains?
Sorry, but showing bigotry cannot be accepted by a tolerant society because it breaks the one tenet of such a society: be tolerant.
The thing you’re ignoring is that being rejected by businesses is harmful to those being rejected. And moreover public businesses discriminating is a great way to fracture society and uphold a culture of bigotry and discrimination that then bleeds into every other area. If your religion teaches you to be a bigoted asshole then you need a different religion.
If you run a business, you don’t have a right to discriminate against whole groups of people.
Putting up a discriminatory sign is public structural discrimination and already illegal afaik, so it does not work as an example in this context of private individual discrimination. In reality it is not possible to force a homophobe person to become tolerant, no matter how many laws you make against discrimination. The only way that really helps is education and a social development towards more tolerance. Forcing christian fundamentalists to work with gay people, despite they absolutely refuse it, is not the way but would only create even more social tension and hate.
They absolutely have the right to post such things(first amendment). They just have to be willing to accept any consequences as a result.
So in your example Black people have no right to a service if the location does not wish to serve them? If the next closest location is a days drive away so be it? Maybe they just need to go live closer to those services?
Yes. As a business owner they can refuse business to anyone. They also have to deal with any fallout as a result of such a racist policy.
There should be some class of protections, maybe some civil code of rights or something…
Unfortunately, i think these only pertain to hiring of individuals.
only pertain to hiring of individuals
Not true. Title II of Civil Rights Act (1964) prohibits discrimination in public accomodations (such as hotels and restaurants or other establishments that serve the public), as affirmed by the Supreme Court to be enforceable in for example Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. (1964).
An atheist living in Saudi Arabia absolutely has the right to walk into the public square and shout that god does not exist. They just have to be willing to accept the consequences of execution as a result.
Stating a fact of physical ability does not contribute any additional information in a discussion about legality.
I stated the amendment pertaining to my comment.
You absolutely do not have the right to post a sign like “No Hispanics” at your restaurant, under current US law (Civil Rights Act of 1964). You do not have to wait for an actual hispanic person to show up and be refused service to be liable - the presence of the sign alone is already in violation and can get you fined or imprisoned. You cannot claim “This sign is just for decoration as an expression of my 1st Amendment rights, we would never actually enforce it.” In this way, the Civil Rights Act already does abridge your right to write any sign you want, ironically in direct contradiction to the “Congress shall make no law” language of the 1st Amendment.
Civil Rights Act of 1964
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.
And yet, it seems legal to not serve someone based on religious beliefs as well as sex, based on the numerous times it has happened. Why is that ok but not the other? I mean, i know it’s not really ok, but it’s still allowed to happen.
That’s the Supreme Court for ya! Their judgements do tend to meander and sometimes flip over the years, especially recently. You are probably refering to Masterpiece Cakeshop (2017) decision being different from the civil rights era cases, like say Newman v. Piggie Park Enterprises, Inc. (1968) where the defendant who did not want to serve black customers at his BBQ restaurants unsuccessfully argued that “the Civil Rights Act violated his freedom of religion as his religious beliefs compel him to oppose any integration of the races whatever.” It is still enlightening to read the actual court decisions and the justifications used to arrive at one conclusion or another, and especially their explanations for how the current case is different from all the other cases decided before. After a while though it does start to look as if you could argue for any point of view whatsoever if you argued hard enough.
So they can post the sign as long as it’s just decoration? The fuck are you talking about?
Explain to me how the first amendment pertains at all to refusing service to people based on race or sexual orientation.
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In theory I agree with you but at the same time it seems incredibly naive to me to think laws that force homophobes to work with gay people against their will, are going to fix discrimination, to be honest that would even create additional problems imo. How do you even want to put that in practice? Force the photographer at gunpoint to take nice pictures on a gay wedding? i don think that would be practicable. Maybe fining the photographer if he is stupid enough to be honest about why he refuses a job? Well, from now on he will just say his schedule is full when a gay person calls. I just can imagine any realistic way this would work tbh.
Of course open and structural discrimination needs to be outlawed, like having signs that say “No blacks” or “No gays” but the issue of individual discrimination can not be solved by the law, it can only change through real social development towards a tolerant society, sorry USA but that is how it looks.
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You don’t get to pick and choose who you don’t like.
Do your feet still touch the ground when you walk?
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Yes, obviously it is, that was never in question from my side though. However the question remains how far laws can help with discrimination. As you know racial discrimination is illegal in the USA for some decades now. So how is the situation today? Did those laws fix racism? Sure people can put up discriminatory signs anymore but in fact the USA is still one of the most racist societies on the planet, until this day. So obviously laws can help only to a certain degree. I think laws can help with public and structural/institutional discrimination pretty well but they can not fix individual discrimination. So obviously, there is a limit to how far we can get in fixing this problem just by making more laws. What laws can not change is how people feel and think, only real social development towards more tolerance, based on proper education can do that imo.
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Then rejecting a Christian should be perfectly legal. Soery mate, O don’t serve christians because I’m atheist.
Sure, obviously you should have the right to do so, if that´s what you want to do. That is exactly what I meant to express when I wrote “Everyone should be free to choose”. Apologies if I did somehow not express that clearly enough in my first comment.
You did they’re just taking it personally.
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That’s totally fine. You shouldn’t be forced to work with people you don’t want to work with.
Nobody should be forced by law to do things they don´t want to do.
That’s not going to work. There are many kinds of people, and some of the things they want to do or refuse to do are disruptive or dangerous.
That guy doesn’t want to take care of his home projects, and now toxic smoke is blowing into his neighbors houses. Are you going to just say “well he doesn’t want to deal with that, so the law can’t make him”? I hope not because that creates a shitty world for everyone.
So maybe you meant something different and more limited than what you wrote?
I think the implication in all personal freedom discussions is: freedom so long as it doesn’t unnecessarily harm others. You may have freedom of speech in America, but that doesn’t protect the right to falsely yell “fire” in a crowded theater.
Sure, but that brings us right back to “does refusing service to someone harm them?”
Sure it does. Notice i said unreasonable harm. There is a clear distinction between refusing to take someone’s wedding photo and providing someone with life saving care.
There are US Court cases that deal with this distinction.
Edit: i originally said unnecessarily as opposed to unreasonably… But the point still stands
So maybe you meant something different and more limited than what you wrote?
No, just more limited than your interpretation. I never meant to imply that “Nobody should be forced by law to do things they don´t want to do.” should cancel out all of people’s personal responsibilities. Nobody who offers a service is responsible to offer that service to everyone imo. Imagine a gay person working in any field, could be forced by law, to provide their service to neo-nazis and you might see how pointless your approach is in practice.
Glad we agree that we don’t want an unbounded freedom from responsibility.
But I mean if you don’t force people to serve the entire public you risk some presumably unwanted consequences. Should a whole grocery chain be able to say no blacks? What if it’s the only one in the town? Should realtors be allowed to refuse to sell houses to non whites? What if that means all the black people get forced into one part of town, and coincidentally that part has shitty services and other unwanted traits?
Is the rule “as long as there’s alternatives it’s ok”? Separate but equal was already decided to be unequal.
On the other hand, I do want to be able to refuse service to Nazis. Maybe the key is naziism is wholly something you choose. But I also don’t want people to be able to refuse service to, like, union members.
There’s no universal “anti social behavior” metric, unfortunately, I don’t think.
But I mean if you don’t force people to serve the entire public you risk some presumably unwanted consequences. Should a whole grocery chain be able to say no blacks? What if it’s the only one in the town? Should realtors be allowed to refuse to sell houses to non whites? What if that means all the black people get forced into one part of town, and coincidentally that part has shitty services and other unwanted traits?
Those are examples of public, structural discrimination, which imo is the kind of discrimination that is manageable with laws pretty well. However there is also the kind of individual, private discrimination that can not really be solved by the law. I think it absolutely should be illegal for a company to openly discriminate a group, let’s say by putting up a “No XY” sign and officially not serving XY. However, I also see the limits of how much such laws can do in practice. For example despite such a law being in place, a company could easily still not serve XY -just inofficially- and simply claim a full schedule whenever XY people show up/call, without the law being able to do anything about it. That is why I think laws are not enough and in the end a real social change is necessary to end these types of unjust discrimination.
Is the rule “as long as there’s alternatives it’s ok”? Separate but equal was already decided to be unequal.
Discrimination based on inherent traits is unjust af and therefore can never be “okay”.
On the other hand, I do want to be able to refuse service to Nazis.
I feel the same
Maybe the key is naziism is wholly something you choose. But I also don’t want people to be able to refuse service to, like, union members.
It’s not a simple topic, right? On one hand, I would want it to be legal to put up a “we don serve Nazis” sign, on the other hand, one could argue that someone who was born into a Nazi family and was constantly spoon fed the ideology from the beginning, never really had a chance to not become a Nazi.
There’s no universal “anti social behavior” metric, unfortunately, I don’t think.
In the end I think only education that leads to the understanding that people who are different from you are not your enemies, can help the problem.
While I agree with you in theory, the problem is that this Christian photographer likely has screamed cAnCeL CuLtUrE at some point when someone denied them access to something, like during the pandemic when businesses required masks.
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Waiting for the first Christian couple to be denied the photographers services, to lose their shit about it! It happened when that bakerdid it and it will happen here.
That would be appropriate, since a lot of people in the LGBTQ community behave like they were in a fundamental religion.
Sigh. US politics really wants me to become an anarchist.
How is his policy/service any different from a whites only lunch counter?
It isn’t.
The line seems to be based around custom services or requiring artistic impression. Just selling tacos with choice of 5 toppings, can’t discriminate. Selling tacos with custom designs on the tortillas, can discriminate.
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Making burgers is the same regardless of who eats it.
Taking photos is different based on what you’re taking pictures of.
It’s a single independent contractor performing a service considered to be bespoke skilled labor. He has no obligation to enter a work contract the same way I can’t force you to clean my gutters. A chow house on the other hand, serves the same food to everyone. There’s no contact to enter, only goods to be purchased.
Can a dentist have a non-gay/non-black policy?
Not that I personally agree, but per the Supreme Court, probably.
With that said, on what planet would a black person even want some racist bigot working on their teeth?? There’s a huge risk of him being a total piece of shit and doing a terrible or deliberately malicious job.
Why is society obligated to allow a discriminatory business like this to exist?
Why do we just take as a given that anyone is allowed to start a business?
No one said otherwise, just pointing out why Walmart can’t deny your right to buy a redbull but I have no obligation to fix a computer with a Nazi flag stickers on it.
But our existence is not some kind of political opinion. If a wedding photographer won’t take jobs from interracial couples because he thinks that they sully the white race or some shit it is not really different from the stuff this guy did. And my example would hopefully fall under any anti-discrimnation laws.
Honest question, In your mind, should I be legally compelled to work on systems operated by people openly racist towards me?
What exactly do you mean with “systems”?
I would say no to that because there is a big difference between refusing to work for someone that holds a discriminatory ideology and refusing to work for someone that is some category of human they hate especially if they can’t actually do something about being in that category like with skin colour or being LGBTQ+.
You can’t be tolerant of intolerance if you call yourself tolerant.
What exactly do you mean with “systems”?
Are you paying attention? In the first comment of his you replied to, he said: “but I have no obligation to fix a computer with a Nazi flag stickers on it.”
That right to refuse work based on your personal ideology has to cut both ways, otherwise those in power get to decide what is a ‘just’ reason for refusal of services and what is an ‘unjust’ reason. If the right group of racists were in power, then I could be legally compelled to perform services for those who are openly hostile towards me, which you yourself seem to intimate would be ‘unjust’
In the same way that I can choose not to take a job at Nestle because of how they treat our freshwater supply, I can also choose not to work on Jimbobs computer because he doesn’t believe the Holocaust happened.
Also ‘systems’ was just a placeholder to clarify I wasn’t selling commodites, sorry for any confusion there.
I’m not sure I see how the product of his photography service(however bespoke) is any different from the product of the meal and a place to eat. Everyone at the chow house is arguably getting a bespoke experience as well since there’s more than one seat and presumably you not every meal is going to be prepared in the exact same way and may in fact involve customization like the rarity of a steak or thes submission or removal of ingredients(eg ‘no cheese’).
My understanding is that a business is still allowed to deny service to any singular customer for no explicit reason. It’s the matter of stating and enforcing a policy of discrimination against a protected class.
You can’t force me to clean your gutters, but you also could sue me if I refused to clean your gutters by showing you my policy that I refuse to do business with anyone belonging to whatever protected class you fall under. Because the policy of discrimination is what’s illegal and not the individual act of discrimination itself.
Also, I’m pretty sure purchasing a good still legally qualifies as a form of a contract in tort law. Ofc I am in no way a lawyer so please, anyone, correct me if ive misunderstood here.
