I don’t think this is EEE, I think this is a chance for meta to dominate the narrative by drowning us out with algorithmically curated censorship, distractions, hatred, outrage etc. I would join threads if I want threads, I would be on Reddit if I want corporate influence.
The mastodon post for the same server admins admitting to allow Meta thanks @BrikoX and @Melco
Thanks lunar for articulating my central point better than I could.
Most of my primary content was within the comment section scattered so I’ll try to put it up here and edit more as i go. I was worried I’d butcher things so I avoided updating my post. Ignore the mess
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EEE - I don’t want to talk specifically about this. Many others are, and you can talk with them about it.
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Privacy - My views on privacy is that lemmy is already fully public and facebook merging into it probably wont reduce your lemmy privacy in any meaningful way. Ignoring lemmy, your privacy is already fully breached in ways I’m not going to explain here.
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People keep making blind claims that facebook/meta can’t use their algorithms to interact with us, so i will explain. For the record I know most of this effects mastodon directly, and not so much lemmy.
Threads will be able to control what gets minimised and maximised based on whatever secret algorithms they use. These end results are known to people that want to know, it’s how our parents and grandparents, became increasingly detached from reality. If facebook/meta wants to censor their users, they will, if they want to promote hate against LGBTQs then they will. Those users will then interact with our users, slowly shifting our conversations and the overall culture of lemmy into the same cesspool that is facebook.
Secondly, the content of threads will be selected by a relatively massive userbase which will drown out our content if we stay federated. Of course that content will be optimised by their algorithm, thus influencing fediverse content.
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Now onto the principle matter. FACEBOOK IS EVIL, like genocidal evil, a propaganda arm of the empire evil. They have a heavily proven track record. “Wait and see”? There is no need to ignore facebook/metas criminal record.
The admins here should have clearly stated their intent but have been deafeningly silent. People are asking for clarification or in my case, acting because of a clear lack of action.
Other posts are talking about this and I will assume you have been reading them.
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pjhenry is a troll that ignores what people actually say, he focuses on his intentional misunderstandings and straw-men, just stop feeding the troll guys, he only wants to fight over nothing. He only acts in bad faith.
Their stance if someone is interested https://mastodon.world/@mwadmin/110654590632768079
They basically won’t do anything preemptively.
This seems to be the part that relatively few people have read.
I knew it existed but was an idiot for not having that in the original post >_>
Hmmm… the admins said today on this post chain (at about 10a UTC) that they were going to making a blog post regarding this issue.
So hopefully more clarification will be coming. At this point they’ve heard from enough users to know that there’s pointed disagreement with federating with Threads for more than a nanosecond after they become visible.
Thanks this should be at the top of the thread.
Thank you for pointing out that this is so much worse than just EEE. Meta has a long history of social and political engineering, and deliberately creating a toxic environment that turned all of our parents and grandparents into deranged conspiracy theorists. They don’t just let hate thrive on their platform, they artificially inflate it in the name of engagement and profit.
I see no reason to assume they won’t do all of this again, and should they do it all again it’s going to impact the entire Fediverse. Even if you just stick to instances that block Meta, if you’re federating with instances that aren’t, the toxic environment Meta is likely to build will come back to you. If the majority of instances fail to block them, I can’t bear to stay here and watch what has become the internet’s most healthy and vibrant community rot from the inside.
I honestly don’t understand why this is even a debate. If even a fraction of the shit meta has pulled was done by a smaller Fediverse instance, we all wouldn’t hesitate to defederate from them.
And to those of you who justify Threads because Meta is somehow the lesser of two evils compared to Twitter, please remember that while Twitter is owned by a raging and incompetent manchild, Meta has eroded democracies and played a major role in a genocide. Don’t fucking support these murderers. Meta is more than happy to spread even more hatred and killing in the world if it boosts their profits.
Thank you so much for being the first to properly understand the threat I was trying to express. You said it so much better than I could at the time.
I think the reason we are debating is because there are already bots and bad actors working hard to change and forge opinion. I think this style of fediverse just died, but we are close to easily making a new better one.
I’m gonna need to see an argument on how Threads’ toxicity will reach places that are at least once removed. You can’t just use it as evidence when it’s not even clear it would happen. It’s like saying this community is already tainted because there are folks who also have Instagram accounts. If it’s not via people spreading the toxicity, I’m all ears to hear your reasoning. Cause it’s far from just being obvious.
What are you even arguing anyway? You’re saying defederating Threads isn’t even enough. There’s no sign they’ll even federate beyond platforms of similar concept (micro logging as opposed to link sharing/exchange).
Are you just saying by simply existing, if everyone doesn’t defederate them, the fediverse dies?
Your reply is a perfect example of how threads actions are causing toxicity in lemmy.world.
edit: Id just like to point out that at no point does he respond about meta being evil and unworthy to associate with, which is the important part he should be talking about.
I’d argue your attacking of other people shows that Threads isn’t the reason behind people being toxic. Folks like you simply exist.
This grand standing and these purity tests about threads are sickening.
Not saying meta isn’t evil…. but the whole point of the fediverse is that anyone can start a server. Meta isn’t going to be able to track you any better just thru federation, anyone can already scrape the data. People are too quick to defederate everything
you are replying to the wrong thread, try reading my post. See how I don’t care about your arguments(I care about your comments, just not the arguments themselves) and only care they they will control the narrative.
No meant to post here… I see you didn’t call it out but privacy is a big reason people are worried about threads. Just posting my opinion. Feeds and algorithms can be adjusted if threads is drowning others out. I don’t know how good or bad threads will be for the fediverse but I don’t think you do either. I’m fine with servers taking a wait and see approach and with servers banning. I’m worried about people being very reactionary and servers banning other servers that take a wait and see approach. That is the thing imo that could really kill the fediverse
Also you are declaring lemmy.world is dead when afaik threads won’t even be federating with lemmy, they are just federating with mastodon
Privacy is fully violated regardless of what happens here, but I can understand people worrying about it. You will find that threads still leaks in and dominates us, remember they are a very large group compared to us. We will lose our soul in this exchange, although I agree that neither of us know how bad it is. Unfortunately I’ve been watching service after service get compromised so this isn’t new to me. I think they should all preemptively defederate with threads except for oddball servers which can if they want to, I think after we know how bad it is we should defederate with instances federated with threads.
I’m getting sick of these “time to leave” posts about people wanting to jump ship on each sites decision. Beehaw decided they only want peaceful severs, time to leave. Lemmy.ml was founded by communists, time to leave! Lemmy.world doesn’t instantly defederate from other instances, time to leave!
You can’t just continually shuffle the community from site it site.
While a entire community can’t convince itself to leave, the beauty of the fediverse is if you as a user want to leave it’s very easy to switch instances and get access to most of the same info you want.
If you only scroll-read here - then, yes, it is easy
I certainly post and read. I’m happy with my instance currently, but should lemmy.one does something I don’t agree with I will have no problem switching.
People are so weird. Their online presence means so much to so many. I want to reply to all of them, just switch instances. As important as they feel, nobody is going to bat an eye when they move, yet they feel that they are really losing something if they do.
I’m glad someone realizes it. Online presence is something you want to be worthless. If people see worth in that can lead to a set of problems you don’t want.
It’s almost like this constant ‘call to leave’ is meta’s Trojan horse.
A way to create discourse, lower patience of users and make them question their new home away from corporate enshittification.
I just ignore posts like this, as a partially functional human I am able to form my own opinions and draw my own lines in the sand.
I agree with you. We should not kill them for not defederating immediatelly
deleted by creator
Is there any way to move a community? I created !vans@lemmy.world but I will not be hosting this community on this instance if it federates with Threads. Also going to stop donating to Lemmy.world if this is the route they will take.
We want to prevent enshittification. Not encourage it.
I think it’s absurd to give Meta the shadow of a benefit of the doubt. in the past, they have explicitly stated their intention to make facebook the internet. If zuck had his way, there would be exactly one website, a monolith collecting your data to more efficiently serve you ads. There is no world in which their participation in the fediverse is not self serving and a net loss for the rest of us.
Where is the indication that lemmy.world have “bent the knee”?
mastodon.world announced they won’t block threads yet and lemmy.world has the same owner.
The fact that you ask that is exactly what i mean.
edit: The deafening silence is what i was referring to here, my post has an update about what i mean further. I should have fully explained at the time but was going into “answer everyone” overload and cheaped out.
So the argument for them bending the knee is that someone on a different instance disagrees with you?
I just read the post you linked in the op. I was against federating then changed my mind after reading the post. Their reasoning makes sense, there is no benefit from detaching now but it’s good to be cautiously optimistic with no issue with federating if there’s potential harm.
They are pushing for a system to keep threads in check, which is what is needed
it’s good to be cautiously optimistic
I vaguely remember a quote about nazis at a table.
edit: i’m implying that this instance is complicit, nothing about you personally.
Also, i totally agree with upgrading lemmy itself.
Cautiously optimistic means making sure you’re actually seeing if folks are Nazis before calling them Nazis. They’re saying let’s sit at the table and leave the table if we see Nazis.
You again have provided zero arguments as to why a wait and see approach causes any problem. If the defederate a week after Threads launches ActivityPub, what horrors would have occurred that can’t be undone? And if it’s as bad as you suggest, it’d likely be only hours after launch.
You even admitting to not reading the post when you said this. The link you added leads to a post that you then admitted to not reading til later. They haven’t bent a knee. You’re just overreacting. You’ve provided no evidence other than just “look at their history” or vague claims similar to that. Other times you just insult the person providing an actual argument. You’re a bad faith actor. You’re toxic. Are you sure you don’t belong on Threads?
Oh please, spare us the silly drama.
Consider reading this brief explanation of the issues by one of the ActivityPub authors…
https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2023/07/what-to-know-about-threads/
“drama”? that faq thing doesn’t change the fact that we don’t respect meta and don’t want to share a platform with them
and it’s no surprise the authors of the software are supportive of its mass adoption, that doesn’t mean I have to tolerate a shitty company
we don’t respect meta and don’t want to share a platform with them
I guess a big part of the dilemma is, though we mightn’t respect meta, some of us respect some of the people who use their services - even like some of them - and would like to be in the loop with them without using meta’s services ourselves directly
I’m on a Lemmy instance that’s preemptively defederated, and I respect that, but I might think about creating an account on another instance so I can have interoperability … That said, I’ve done pretty well almost entirely ignoring Facebook and Instagram so far, so maybe I just won’t care enough
If personal attacks are the only response you can give, then they’re clearly right and you’re clearly wrong.
Man… I just got here.
Is there any way how to move account into another instance? Basically so I don’t lose posts.
I myself am interested what lemmy.world’s admins will do. Now they get a lot of criticism for not doing anything but so far I wouldn’t blame them that much.
PS: I would probably still defederate if it was my decision
You would have to make a new account. Not sure how i feel about not having account migration. It’s got its good and bad points. Sad to make a second account though.
I was going to switch from lemmy.world to lemmy.ml but disappointed that I’d be losing all my comment & post history. Not to mention you have to re-subscribe to all your communities again.
If anyone does decide to leave lemmy.world, do not leave the lemmyverse. Join another lemmy instance or start your own instance. Lemmy is the future. Free, open source, federated link aggregator.
You don’t need to stick with Lemmy. Kbin is just as good. I actually prefer it because they already solved the problem of allowing users to block domains.
What is the difference between lemmy and kbin? Is Kbin PHP while lemmy is rust based?
Honestly, I don’t know much of the differences or if it’s even simply which framework they used. It just seems to be two different link exchanges/sharing apps that are compatible with each other. Like, I’m currently on kbin but can see this just fine. I’m not sure what my instance’s stance is currently, but there’s no need to act beforehand as there’s nothing lost by doing it afterward instead of before. I don’t understand the people complaining that it needs to happen immediately right now. Just seems so impatient and entitled. Folks just need to calm down. They’re pulling their hair out for no reason. No one has been able to articulate an actual real problem with wait and see. Just very vague “meta is obviously evil” kind of deal.
I understand privacy being a concern but reddit, lemmy and kbin are not designed for privacy since all posts are public. I guess the upvote/downvotes could be more private perhaps which will protect what users voted on if a database leak occurred.
And E2EE messages are coming in the future I believe
While I agreed those who do not want federation with Threads should leave (me included), lemmy.world has not bent any knee. The admin is taking a wait and see approach, and willing to block if it turns out bad
The long-standing history of Meta’s flagrant unethical practices is enough reason to block them preemptively. I’ll certainly be leaving lemmy.world, ending my donations to them, and moving my community to another instance if they federate with Threads.
Embrace, extend, extinguish. This is what we must prevent.
They will extinguish us by watering down our uniqueness and incorporate us into them regardless of if we are in a separate unique server like lemmy.world. In the end this instance will become intellectually homogenised with meta while foaming at the mouth with standard twitter/reddit/facebook level hate and outrage over dumb stuff.
This is bullshit. Explain how it can even occur instead of just spreading FUD.
I’ve responded to this article multiple times. It’s actually not that great an argument. XMPP would have suffered regardless of Google temporarily joining them. Google being compatible for a short time isn’t why it failed and Google changing away wasn’t to destroy XMPP. It was because Google was failing at chat too. It was lagging behind Apple’s messenger and even for a short bit to BlackBerry messenger. That’s why Google’s history of chat is a big mess. It kept trying new things and failing. XMPP didn’t die because of Google. It died because of competition.
In response to your update about the algorithm, I highly suggest reading how ActivityPub publishes posts. This won’t be as much of a concern as you think. It’d require breaking the spec entirely. It would literally not be compatible with other instances if they had a real-time algorithm like that. The only thing it can truly effect is if you browse Threads directly. Even then, there are certain standards it has to follow if it wants to be compatible. More than likely, you will get a “diminished” Threads experience (ie: you will not see any “benefit” of any Threads specific functionality). They already stated if you apply Thread specific privacy controls, it simply won’t be posted to the federated feed. It’s important to realize their actual feed will not be the same as the federated feed. I do not think Meta wants to capitalize on the fediverse. I think they’re doing it as an inexpensive option to be available in the EU without having to interoperate with direct for-profit competitors.
Again, some folks won’t be sold on the mess federating with Threads will look like. Let it play out and if you are correct, they will defederate very quickly and there won’t be any lasting harm. Meta will gain nothing. You will have stressed and lost years off your life for worrying so much.
Just drink some tea and watch the sunset or something.
