Please don’t put any hate comments against the developers of lemmy or against the person who posted this.
I am also unhappy about what the main lemmy instance is doing.
What are your thoughts?
There is a difference between people advocating for human rights abuses and people saying that some actor does in fact not engage in human rights abuses. The difference is stark and even there, if the actor would in fact in engage in human right abuses.
An open society must tolerate the later. I.e. we must tolerate that people dispute that human right abuses occur or occurred. This is because you cannot judge someone purely due to getting the facts wrong or not knowing them.
If we wouldn’t allow this, we would de-facto argue for a totalitarian state, since we wouldn’t allow people disputing facts (which can be proven or disproven). We would have to nominate some entity that judges what is fact and what isn’t, which is the opposite to gathering evidence and engaging in an open, society wide discussion.
To be clear: Allowing discussions around whether abuses occur is notably different to letting people get away with advocating for abuses. The latter is what needs strong responses. The former is what requires engagement.
I don’t see anything on lemmy or in the mastodon thread that shows that human rights abuses are advocated for. What I do see is that there are some fractions that show sympathies to China which you would otherwise only see for the USA. I think its useful to compare these sympathies because they seem to express themselves in similar ways.
With all that said, I think the opinion expressed in the mastodon thread is not particularly useful. It, in many ways, minimises real human rights abuses that occur world wide, day to day, in China, USA, and many other countries in East and West.
Let’s call out the abuses, let’s discuss and present the evidence for them, let’s not alienate people and create polarity that looks like us-vs-them.
Very well said. Also, if these people disagree with the rules on lemmy.ml, they could create their own instance, with their own rules. Thats the whole point of federation.
Us: “China isn’t committing the atrocities the West accuses them of and here’s evidence.”
Anti-China people: “OMG you actively advocate for China’s atrocities and want them to keep happening!”
We politely asked this fedi account to take this discussion here, but they obstinately refused. They’ve equated even any discussion questioning the Zenz / Byler / ASPI narrative as genocide denial.
Block 'em and move on I say. It’s clear there’s no reasoning with them and there isn’t much we can do to stop them from spewing propaganda at us. In fact, engaging them will probably only exacerbate things.
There is a difference between people advocating for human rights abuses and people saying that some actor does in fact not engage in human rights abuses.
The main difference is, that one practice gaslighting as a means to justify such acts.
They will claim “it was just joking”, or explain how in fact the abuse is something good, hence they aren’t for human right violation because they are for something that they just defined as something good.
I’m sorry to see people somewhere on the Internet coming out against Lemmy. First of all, let me say that I sympathize with the China issue. I’m a Muslim and I have been concerned about the Uyghurs for a very long time. This is not some bandwagon that I am jumping on, and I have ties to the region as well. I moderate the Uyghur sub on Reddit, created #uyghur on matrix.org, and on lemmy.ml I have registered communities like c/uyghur and c/xinjiang. I did that mainly to promote the welfare of Uyghurs and guard against whitewashing of the situation in Xinjiang. Obviously I am pro-Uyghur, and I feel that the admins of lemmy.ml have been gracious enough to respect me as a user and a mod. I have also not seen them engage in censorship of opposing viewpoints on this issue, and we have at least once that I can remember disagreed on China’s Uyghur policy here on the site. This did not result in any problem.
Please don’t cancel Lemmy, because the software is amazing and the creators really are nice. I don’t have to agree with them on politics in China. As long as they’re not crazy about it, the situation is manageable. So far they’ve always been fair.
Even suppose that one day they implement a policy on lemmy.ml that says they won’t allow anyone to post pro-Uyghur things. So what? It’s their Lemmy instance, they can decide what’s on it. I can go start my own instance. I really don’t think lemmy.ml has any obligation to do what the community wants. They’ve already done enough by creating the software and making it FOSS.
Besides, you know how many people posted pro-Uyghur content on c/uyghur since I created it? None. So if you’re concerned about how the issue is being represented on this site, maybe you could come post something sometime, or argue in the comments.
Anyway, at present I’m not recommending any other Reddit alternative and probably won’t.
I believe it is a mistake selecting that particular instance for those communities.
The risk isn’t just that they shut it down, there’s a much worse thing that could happen: pinpoint elision (or even editing) of reporting on the genocide.
Everyone should get a platform to spread their views/propaganda :)
Apart from Nazis.
No, even they should, in the process you isolate them.
This has been tried before in different ways; infowars, parler, even giving them r/thedonald (as some believed it kept them off other reddits) … It has only led to fascists finding a platform to start working their poison and spread it outside.
In fact isolating only worked when moderators finally did something and deplatformed them, I.e. Banned these communities. After Alex Jones was taken off youtube, infowars died. Spencer was punched so much he stopped leaving the house (and so stopped propagandising). Milo was canceled everywhere he went (literally), but especially on Twitter, and last I heard he filed for bankruptcy.
The best way to isolate them is to fragment their communities so much that any organisation is impossible. And of course prevent them from creating such communities. If you let them have their spaces, they will find them, they will go on there (and they’re very good at using the edgy aspect to lure in new recruits), and then you end up with another terrorist attack. They will organise on there and that’s what you want to prevent.
You know you can apply that to any antifa member who wants disobey laws by resorting to violent means.
i’ll take “Whataboutism” for 500, Alex.
No one forces you to use lemmy.ml
if we were talking about lemmygrad, I would agree, but personally lemmy.ml is a place for me that I enjoy browsing and posting to. anyway I think it’s the best opportunity for anyone interested in making a centrist or apolitical instance and get the label of “flagship instance” on joinlemmy to help it grow and become as big as lemmy.ml, it will also make it easier for people who don’t like the politics of lemmy.ml to choose an instance knowing that it has no strong political affiliation.
but I agree the folks on lemmygrad can be a little bit … let’s say annoying.
also interesting that their only problem seems to be about the “genocide”.
The developers of lemmy are self-admidded tankies, what else to expect?
Tankies and the Left-Unity Scam https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ziq-tankies-and-the-left-unity-scam
huh, why the downvotes? Because I used the term tankies, but you prefer to be called Marxist-Leninist? When contemporary anti-authoritarians use the term tankie, they usually refer to contemporary Marxist-Leninist. Hope that explanation helps. So when I say you are Marxist-Leninst, I mean you are tankie.
Would you prefer we refer to you as dronie or anarkiddie?
I wouldn’t understand what dronie is so that term might not well serve the purpose if used to address me. If you address me as anarkiddie, it be enough for a tiny giggle, but then I’ll be remembered how that term is actually discrimination against children. It helps to reproduce adultism over and over again.
Dronie refers to the fact that anarchist positions are always aligned with US foreign policy. It’s exact same rationale as the tankie slur you love so much. Meanwhile, anarkiddie refers to the fact that full grown adults hold infantile views of the world.
Dronie refers to the fact that anarchist positions are always aligned with US foreign policy.
hmm, ok. This wouldn’t fit me. I’m opposing US foreign policy in most parts, not all I must admit. I’m for: Dismantle the US empire. It’s just a phrase, but I mean it like that.
You’re literally peddling US state propaganda in this thread.
you’re aware that dev of lemmy use the term tankie as a self description too?
Same logic as saying that Black people use the n word colloquially and therefore it’s fine to use it as a slur.
Since you’re clearly ideologically opposed to Marxist-Leninist views, why are you here?
lemmy.ml is also for anarchists, right?
So, don’t use lemmy as a software because there are some disagreeable things on one of the instances? Who gives a shit? This is the whole point of the fediverse. Defederate. Go to another instance. Mod. Block. Do whatever because that’s what the fediverse alows.
The logical inconsistency of supporting the fediverse but not supporting a method of accessing the fediverse because of content on the fediverse is very severe.
FediTips and the commenters in that thread make some good points. The fact that this Lemmy instance federates with Lemmygrad (which, if you look at the front page, is full of denialism about the Uyghur genocide) is an atrocity.
And yes, https://lemmy.ml/modlog does indeed have some questionable entries, such as:
- Removed Community conservatives reason: No conservative communities
- Removed Community Libertarian, in the pursuit of a free society reason: No conservative communities allowed
- Removed Community Conservatism reason: No conservative subs allowed
I created the Conservatism community, not knowing that Lemmy (lemmy.ml) became a leftist instance. (Lemmy was not explicitly leftist when I made my account in July 2020. Look at this archive of the front page from November 2020, which does not include the word leftist in the sidebar.) Fine, whatever. But, removing the Libertarian community with the rationale “No conservative communities allowed”? I don’t understand that. That’s not even politically accurate.
Wikipedia is not a source bruh. In the introductory paragraph on the uyghur genocide article they say that thousands of mosques have been destroyed… But don’t mention they have been rebuilt to accommodate more people or because they weren’t up to code. There are more mosques in Xinjiang alone in 2021 than there are in all of Europe lol.
Wikipedia has a clear agenda and this is clear from looking at their board of directors and demographics. They are not a source and neither are their sources - - they are carefully curated to offer a specific analysis.
Even US state department denies the Uyghur genocide. Give it a rest already.
You are aware that this is just about semantics? It’s not about if those crimes against humanity that some call genocide are happening, it is if those crimes against humanity should be called genocide or differently. Stop gaslighing.
“The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide,…”
Some more quote from the article:
“Secretary Blinken and I have made clear that genocide has been committed against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang,”
“I have determined that the People’s Republic of China is committing genocide and crimes against humanity in Xinjiang, China, targeting Uyghur Muslims and members of other ethnic and religious minority groups,”
“For example, the torture, rape and sexual violence committed against Uyghurs likely constitute genocide ‘by causing serious bodily and mental harm’—the second type of genocide recognized by the Convention,
“More than 1 million Uighurs have been detained in reeducation camps, and many have reportedly been subjected to forced labor and sterilization. China has committed numerous crimes listed in the convention as acts of genocide, including the prevention of births and infliction of bodily or mental harm on members of a group and the compulsory separation of children from their communities, according to human rights groups.”
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xD. I get the Joke @TheAnonymouseJoker. Hope you wont get to much downovtes by those not understanding the actual joke. xD Because this might not be obvious to others reading here I give a short explanation:
It’s a common practice by tankies and of those who come at their defense, to make some claim/question about “shit lib” or CIA, and it doesn’t matter if it fits the current argument or not. Usually some conspiracy follow after that.
The joke here is to make a pun out of that behavior, by injecting that “CIA” claim at a moment it just doesn’t servers well.
And here’s why: Someone tried to gaslight an political opponent by linking to an article that they claim to be about “Even US state department denies the Uyghur genocide”. So all I did is to quote some parts of the text, as a means to break the gaslighting spell. And now, the source that was original used to prove that that genocide did not happen, if used by a non-tankie it is CIA propaganda shit libs believe in. And because this art of debate is so absurd, it creates some laughter for some. On the other hand it is also very anoying, because you can’t have any serious logical consistent debate with anyone who argues like that.
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I’ve been struggling the whole day about how to respond to this.
My first reaction was disgust, as the thing going on with Uyghurs in China pretty much looks like a genocide, regardless of semantics. “If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck”.
When it comes to discussion about the subject, I however have to agree with @jazzfes@lemmy.ml.
To be clear: Allowing discussions around whether abuses occur is notably different to letting people get away with advocating for abuses. The latter is what needs strong responses. The former is what requires engagement.
No promotion of oppression or bigotry has in this case happened. I’d rather allow people have these discussions as long as they can behave like in a furnished space.
I’m fine with the developers’ political views, as the Lemmy software is more important.
Of course Lemmy has now a certain kind of PR problem as this FediTips fella is making big accusations and wanting people to stop using Lemmy altogether.
Let’s not fool ourselves, denying Uyghur abuse puts you in the same territory as holocaust deniers.
Would you deny white genocide? You should. The reasoned denial of a supposed genocide is not equivalent to the ideological denial (or fabrication) of the same. Holocaust denial is not the same as scepticism of the genocide which is supposed to be taking place in Xinjiang. To equate any genocide with the Holocaust is an ideological tool used to avoid analysis of the subject.
Then the United Nations are holocaust deniers. Fact is that no international court or UN organ has even investigated the alleged genocide. Innocent until proven guilty.
Highly recommend reading this recent report from Italy regarding Xinjiang.
It’s ironic that the “OMG CHINA IS GENOCIDING” crowd accuses us of lying and ignoring evidence when we tend to be the only ones providing sources for our claims. It’s evident in this very thread.
